How I Ended Up With a 996 Cup Car
05-14-2021 | 01:19 AM
#1
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,415
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From: South Florida
How I Ended Up With a 996 Cup Car
Sorry in advance for the long post but I figured it would be good to share my experience and how I came through a 996 Turbo on my way to a 996 GT3 Cup. If you just want the driving impressions, head down below to the second chapter…
Without going too far back in time, a good place to start was back in 2013 when I bought a 2004 996 C4S with the intention to daily the car and have it see some track time as well. I worked my way up to a point where I was not just attending HPDE weekends but was now an Instructor and pushing my car quite hard on R-Comp tires. It was around this time that I realized it was time for me to get away from the M96 engine as the lateral loads were getting up there and I didn’t want to go down the road of the engine mods to make it reliable for track use.
Mid 2016 I started to look for a Mezger engined replacement. The 996 Turbo was the least expensive point of entry and so I decided to focus my efforts here. The week of Thanksgiving 2016 I took delivery of my 2003 Turbo and was finally experiencing forced induction sports cars for the first time. WOW what a hit when the turbos spooled up, it was like taking off in a jet when going up through the gears!
Before the end of the year I had purchased a set of coilovers and the 997.1 GT3 350mm brake upgrade as the start down the slippery slope. Track days were fun and the car was amazing, keeping pace with (and passing) all kinds of quick and younger track weapons, GT3’s & GT4’s as well as many other quick cars. Then came the tuning (thanks Kevin!), the exhaust, the sway bars, the seat/6 point belts, intercoolers, the list goes on…
But then the “BIG” upgrade was looming on the horizon. Pull the engine and transmission out of the car, replace everything rubber, pin the lines, water pump, check valves, clutch, lightweight flywheel, convert to 2WD, add limited slip differential, add transmission cooler, the list goes on… Why do all this? It was becoming more and more necessary as the open diff at the rear wasn’t sending power to the front fast enough at the track unless the Hoosiers were basically brand new. I was having to time getting on the throttle several times a lap to avoid leaving a 12” wide black strip behind me coming off the corners. It was clear I needed to add a limited slip diff and the list of “while you’re in there” parts was quite expensive for a guy with 2 kids under 4 years old. I had wanted to do the transmission work in summer/fall of 2019 but my plans kept slipping out and then when Covid hit in 2020 and all my track time basically dried up it just never happened.
It was around this time that I remembered a conversation I had with Rennlister 911mhawk where I asked him if he would do anything differently with his 996 Turbo (his car is a track beast!) assuming he could go back in time and he said that he wished he would have just started with a GT2 or a GT3. Considering I was basically out at the end of the Bolt On trail with my Turbo I think this really swayed my decision to just put it back to stock (my car really was in spectacular condition) and move on to a dedicated track car. I mean really, I already had the tow vehicle and trailer that I was using so the only thing I was giving up was the street use of the car.
Fast forward to fall 2020 I saw an ad for a 996 GT3 Cup and started to research those finding that they were actually cheaper than the Street GT3’s by a decent margin, enough so that I figured I might be able to sell my Turbo and all the performance parts to break even or maybe even have a couple of bucks left over especially when I factored in not having to spend $15k on a transmission upgrade. Add to that the safety features that I was gaining by going to a dedicated track car and for me it was a no brainer. Time to prep the Turbo for sale, the search was on!
I started poking around in the Cup Car section of Rennlist as well as looking at every available car out there. I talked to several different people who all had good advice (and all warned me of the cost of running a Cup car) and after a lot of back and forth as well as missing out on a what I thought was a pretty good buy (turns out the car needed a good bit of work, I spoke to the buyer after he got it home) I was approached by a PCA racer who had a freshly rebuilt Cup that he was almost ready to put on the market. About a month of courtship ensued and we struck a deal that would be contingent upon getting a Pro Driver in the car to validate that everything worked as it should and that the car handled just the way it was supposed to. The bonus here was that we had the car transported down to Sebring for the 2021 Club Race and I got to ride along with Bryan Sellers in the car for a few laps during the David Murray event before the race! Very cool guy and one hell of a driver, quite the eye-opening experience…
Next up, Chapter Two: Driving Impressions
Let’s start with car specs – My Turbo was 3500 lbs wet and was probably making about 500 hp at the crank, maybe 525. It was on Bilstein PSS10 Suspension with a track alignment, Hoosier “slicks” in 245/40 and 315/30-18’s, 350mm brakes at all 4 corners with Pagid RS29 pads and good brake fluid, GT3 adjustable swaybars, Milltek exhaust, 997.2 intercoolers, GT2 rear wing and Joe Toth front splitter for aero. Oh, and Kevin’s UMW Tune.
The GT3 Cup is 2700 lbs wet and makes 390 hp at the crank (fresh 0 hour engine and transmission), has rebuilt Sachs 2 way adjustable dampers, Pirelli slicks in 245/645 and 305/680-18’s, stock cup brakes, GT3 adjustable swaybars, factory roll cage, and a fire suppression system. Basically, the car is about as close to what it was when it left the factory back in 2003 but for a few miscellaneous things here and there.
I know I’m not turning anywhere near “Pro Driver” lap times but in my Turbo I was turning lap times pretty consistently in the 2:23’s at Sebring which is pretty quick. I’m not really sure what a “Pro” would have turned in my Turbo but let’s assume around 5 seconds faster. My first laps getting used to the Cup Car I was already in the 2:25 range and although I only got two sessions in due to a rainout I was able to get down into the 2:22’s with a pretty sloppy lap. Fast forward to early May and I was back at Sebring again. This time I had a whole weekend and five 30 minute sessions each day to get out there and have fun, except that after two great sessions on Saturday morning I got 2 laps into my third session and the fuel pump crapped out on me, ugghh! I was seriously bummed out but I was still able to get down to a 2:19 and my data system saying that a low 2:18 was possible (I’m using a Garmin Catalyst). For reference, the car with a “Pro Driver” will do a 2:10 on fresh Michelin slicks (which I’m told are 1.5-2 seconds faster than the Pirellis) so considering I was even in the teens and dropping about a second per session just from getting more comfortable with the car I’m seriously excited (yes, I know I would have plateaued eventually). I think on fresh slicks with full focus after I get comfortable with the car I can get somewhere around a 2:15. Cool!
Driving wise the cars are just so different, 800 lbs lighter and a MUCH stiffer suspension are quite a lot to get used to. For example, there are now bumps in places that I didn’t remember ever really thinking about (or feeling either) that I now have to be prepared for as the stiff suspension kinda bounces over them and then sticks like glue on the landing can catch you off guard a little bit. In the places that I expect the bumps, I’m prepared for it but I’ve been finding a lot of other little places I never really felt before.
The driving experience is just so much more raw, the steering is telepathic, the shifter is super precise with very short throws, the brakes are like the hand of god pulling you back (800 lbs less will do that…), and the sound, the SOUND, holy crap it is incredible! I get out of the car and I’m shaking from the adrenaline, it is just so intense and an unbelievable amount of FUN!
I will say that a little part of me misses not being able to drive on the street in a supercar but I’ve got other cars that scratch the itch and really, they are plenty of fun for what you can do on the street within the legal limits.
Thanks for reading everyone and feel free to ask any questions that you might have about my experiences.
My current best lap of Sebring is shown below:
Without going too far back in time, a good place to start was back in 2013 when I bought a 2004 996 C4S with the intention to daily the car and have it see some track time as well. I worked my way up to a point where I was not just attending HPDE weekends but was now an Instructor and pushing my car quite hard on R-Comp tires. It was around this time that I realized it was time for me to get away from the M96 engine as the lateral loads were getting up there and I didn’t want to go down the road of the engine mods to make it reliable for track use.
Mid 2016 I started to look for a Mezger engined replacement. The 996 Turbo was the least expensive point of entry and so I decided to focus my efforts here. The week of Thanksgiving 2016 I took delivery of my 2003 Turbo and was finally experiencing forced induction sports cars for the first time. WOW what a hit when the turbos spooled up, it was like taking off in a jet when going up through the gears!
Before the end of the year I had purchased a set of coilovers and the 997.1 GT3 350mm brake upgrade as the start down the slippery slope. Track days were fun and the car was amazing, keeping pace with (and passing) all kinds of quick and younger track weapons, GT3’s & GT4’s as well as many other quick cars. Then came the tuning (thanks Kevin!), the exhaust, the sway bars, the seat/6 point belts, intercoolers, the list goes on…
But then the “BIG” upgrade was looming on the horizon. Pull the engine and transmission out of the car, replace everything rubber, pin the lines, water pump, check valves, clutch, lightweight flywheel, convert to 2WD, add limited slip differential, add transmission cooler, the list goes on… Why do all this? It was becoming more and more necessary as the open diff at the rear wasn’t sending power to the front fast enough at the track unless the Hoosiers were basically brand new. I was having to time getting on the throttle several times a lap to avoid leaving a 12” wide black strip behind me coming off the corners. It was clear I needed to add a limited slip diff and the list of “while you’re in there” parts was quite expensive for a guy with 2 kids under 4 years old. I had wanted to do the transmission work in summer/fall of 2019 but my plans kept slipping out and then when Covid hit in 2020 and all my track time basically dried up it just never happened.
It was around this time that I remembered a conversation I had with Rennlister 911mhawk where I asked him if he would do anything differently with his 996 Turbo (his car is a track beast!) assuming he could go back in time and he said that he wished he would have just started with a GT2 or a GT3. Considering I was basically out at the end of the Bolt On trail with my Turbo I think this really swayed my decision to just put it back to stock (my car really was in spectacular condition) and move on to a dedicated track car. I mean really, I already had the tow vehicle and trailer that I was using so the only thing I was giving up was the street use of the car.
Fast forward to fall 2020 I saw an ad for a 996 GT3 Cup and started to research those finding that they were actually cheaper than the Street GT3’s by a decent margin, enough so that I figured I might be able to sell my Turbo and all the performance parts to break even or maybe even have a couple of bucks left over especially when I factored in not having to spend $15k on a transmission upgrade. Add to that the safety features that I was gaining by going to a dedicated track car and for me it was a no brainer. Time to prep the Turbo for sale, the search was on!
I started poking around in the Cup Car section of Rennlist as well as looking at every available car out there. I talked to several different people who all had good advice (and all warned me of the cost of running a Cup car) and after a lot of back and forth as well as missing out on a what I thought was a pretty good buy (turns out the car needed a good bit of work, I spoke to the buyer after he got it home) I was approached by a PCA racer who had a freshly rebuilt Cup that he was almost ready to put on the market. About a month of courtship ensued and we struck a deal that would be contingent upon getting a Pro Driver in the car to validate that everything worked as it should and that the car handled just the way it was supposed to. The bonus here was that we had the car transported down to Sebring for the 2021 Club Race and I got to ride along with Bryan Sellers in the car for a few laps during the David Murray event before the race! Very cool guy and one hell of a driver, quite the eye-opening experience…
Next up, Chapter Two: Driving Impressions
Let’s start with car specs – My Turbo was 3500 lbs wet and was probably making about 500 hp at the crank, maybe 525. It was on Bilstein PSS10 Suspension with a track alignment, Hoosier “slicks” in 245/40 and 315/30-18’s, 350mm brakes at all 4 corners with Pagid RS29 pads and good brake fluid, GT3 adjustable swaybars, Milltek exhaust, 997.2 intercoolers, GT2 rear wing and Joe Toth front splitter for aero. Oh, and Kevin’s UMW Tune.
The GT3 Cup is 2700 lbs wet and makes 390 hp at the crank (fresh 0 hour engine and transmission), has rebuilt Sachs 2 way adjustable dampers, Pirelli slicks in 245/645 and 305/680-18’s, stock cup brakes, GT3 adjustable swaybars, factory roll cage, and a fire suppression system. Basically, the car is about as close to what it was when it left the factory back in 2003 but for a few miscellaneous things here and there.
I know I’m not turning anywhere near “Pro Driver” lap times but in my Turbo I was turning lap times pretty consistently in the 2:23’s at Sebring which is pretty quick. I’m not really sure what a “Pro” would have turned in my Turbo but let’s assume around 5 seconds faster. My first laps getting used to the Cup Car I was already in the 2:25 range and although I only got two sessions in due to a rainout I was able to get down into the 2:22’s with a pretty sloppy lap. Fast forward to early May and I was back at Sebring again. This time I had a whole weekend and five 30 minute sessions each day to get out there and have fun, except that after two great sessions on Saturday morning I got 2 laps into my third session and the fuel pump crapped out on me, ugghh! I was seriously bummed out but I was still able to get down to a 2:19 and my data system saying that a low 2:18 was possible (I’m using a Garmin Catalyst). For reference, the car with a “Pro Driver” will do a 2:10 on fresh Michelin slicks (which I’m told are 1.5-2 seconds faster than the Pirellis) so considering I was even in the teens and dropping about a second per session just from getting more comfortable with the car I’m seriously excited (yes, I know I would have plateaued eventually). I think on fresh slicks with full focus after I get comfortable with the car I can get somewhere around a 2:15. Cool!
Driving wise the cars are just so different, 800 lbs lighter and a MUCH stiffer suspension are quite a lot to get used to. For example, there are now bumps in places that I didn’t remember ever really thinking about (or feeling either) that I now have to be prepared for as the stiff suspension kinda bounces over them and then sticks like glue on the landing can catch you off guard a little bit. In the places that I expect the bumps, I’m prepared for it but I’ve been finding a lot of other little places I never really felt before.
The driving experience is just so much more raw, the steering is telepathic, the shifter is super precise with very short throws, the brakes are like the hand of god pulling you back (800 lbs less will do that…), and the sound, the SOUND, holy crap it is incredible! I get out of the car and I’m shaking from the adrenaline, it is just so intense and an unbelievable amount of FUN!
I will say that a little part of me misses not being able to drive on the street in a supercar but I’ve got other cars that scratch the itch and really, they are plenty of fun for what you can do on the street within the legal limits.
Thanks for reading everyone and feel free to ask any questions that you might have about my experiences.
My current best lap of Sebring is shown below:
05-14-2021 | 11:45 AM
#3
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,949
Likes: 194
From: NC
A competitive club race lap is in the 15s. Best I ever did was a low 13 in practice.
05-14-2021 | 12:43 PM
#5
Three Wheelin'
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,326
Likes: 175
From: Ontario, Canada
Is it just the transmission/engine rebuilds that are the biggest running costs associated with cup cars?
I've been told by several people that they are expensive to maintain, but never have people elaborated on why. Assuming you just do DE weekends with a cup car do they require more maintenance than a regular street GT3?
I've been told by several people that they are expensive to maintain, but never have people elaborated on why. Assuming you just do DE weekends with a cup car do they require more maintenance than a regular street GT3?
05-14-2021 | 12:58 PM
#6
Rennlist Member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 867
Likes: 192
From: Maryland
Is it just the transmission/engine rebuilds that are the biggest running costs associated with cup cars?
I've been told by several people that they are expensive to maintain, but never have people elaborated on why. Assuming you just do DE weekends with a cup car do they require more maintenance than a regular street GT3?
I've been told by several people that they are expensive to maintain, but never have people elaborated on why. Assuming you just do DE weekends with a cup car do they require more maintenance than a regular street GT3?
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WhoDat996tt (08-19-2024)
05-14-2021 | 01:24 PM
#7
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 15,605
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From: Valencia, Spain
Is it just the transmission/engine rebuilds that are the biggest running costs associated with cup cars?
I've been told by several people that they are expensive to maintain, but never have people elaborated on why. Assuming you just do DE weekends with a cup car do they require more maintenance than a regular street GT3?
I've been told by several people that they are expensive to maintain, but never have people elaborated on why. Assuming you just do DE weekends with a cup car do they require more maintenance than a regular street GT3?
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05-14-2021 | 02:06 PM
#8
Thread Starter
Rennlist Member
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,415
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From: South Florida
Is it just the transmission/engine rebuilds that are the biggest running costs associated with cup cars?
I've been told by several people that they are expensive to maintain, but never have people elaborated on why. Assuming you just do DE weekends with a cup car do they require more maintenance than a regular street GT3?
I've been told by several people that they are expensive to maintain, but never have people elaborated on why. Assuming you just do DE weekends with a cup car do they require more maintenance than a regular street GT3?
05-14-2021 | 02:06 PM
#9
Thread Starter
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Joined: Mar 2013
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From: South Florida
05-14-2021 | 02:13 PM
#10
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From: South Florida
I think that time May need a few asterisks as it was Wolf Henzler driving a Farnbacher prepared pro level car there for essentially some inexpensive test days. So I think this car may have been a bit out of C3 legal but not sure. Plus one of the best drivers in the world in a cup car.
A competitive club race lap is in the 15s. Best I ever did was a low 13 in practice.
A competitive club race lap is in the 15s. Best I ever did was a low 13 in practice.
05-14-2021 | 04:50 PM
#11
Drifting
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,052
Likes: 68
From: Connecticut
I think that time May need a few asterisks as it was Wolf Henzler driving a Farnbacher prepared pro level car there for essentially some inexpensive test days. So I think this car may have been a bit out of C3 legal but not sure. Plus one of the best drivers in the world in a cup car.
A competitive club race lap is in the 15s. Best I ever did was a low 13 in practice.
A competitive club race lap is in the 15s. Best I ever did was a low 13 in practice.
08-19-2024 | 03:45 PM
#14
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Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 116
Likes: 7
From: San Diego, CA
Do you still run this cup? If so, any "long term" thoughts? If not, why not?
I'm basically following your same progression, except have gone that extra route (welded coolant lines, etc) and have been lusting after a 996 cup since a buddy bought one and let me try it out...stupid me for accepting.
I'm basically following your same progression, except have gone that extra route (welded coolant lines, etc) and have been lusting after a 996 cup since a buddy bought one and let me try it out...stupid me for accepting.
08-19-2024 | 05:35 PM
#15
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Joined: Mar 2013
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From: South Florida
Do you still run this cup? If so, any "long term" thoughts? If not, why not?
I'm basically following your same progression, except have gone that extra route (welded coolant lines, etc) and have been lusting after a 996 cup since a buddy bought one and let me try it out...stupid me for accepting.
I'm basically following your same progression, except have gone that extra route (welded coolant lines, etc) and have been lusting after a 996 cup since a buddy bought one and let me try it out...stupid me for accepting.
Oh yea, I'm still running the car and enjoying it thoroughly! Once you take a ride in one you are definitely on the slippery slope... There's what looks to be a nice one in the Marketplace right now and another on BaT that might also be nice (or could be a risk).
The nice thing is that your 996 Turbo should be able to fetch a pretty good price these days and might be an even swap into a 996 Cup
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