$3400 for timing belt change: too much?
10-13-2018, 02:38 PM
#3
Chronic Tool Dropper
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Depends on the year, and a lot on what parts they include.
Factory new water pump with plastic impeller.
Rollers and bearings, and the lever bushing
Worn gears including possible cam (2), crankshaft, and oil pump.
Rebuild kit for the tensioner, including seals and the boot, plus a NEW tensioner bolt with sealant on it.
Factory Porsche or Gates timing belt. NOT the Conti.
New fluids including oil and proper coolant, plus sealing washers for the oil and coolant galley drain plugs.
Has a proper belt tension measuring tool and the workshop manuals.
Warranty
If all those things and a known 928-savvy mechanic, then $3400 is not too outrageous these days.
I spend the best part of a long day changing the belt and bits. There's always a lot of cleaning to do on the way in and out on this project, and I tend to dream up a list of TISDWIAIT items to extend the project beyond the listed basics. So it can stretch over a couple days especially if I need to have more bits shipped in. The first time I ran video cameras and narrated the disassembly and reassembly. It proved invaluable when I didn't remember perfectly exactly where and which parts were used in each step. It's essential that all the pieces go back where they should and with proper torque and treatment.
Some others here who turn wrenches professionally might chime in with their opinions. I've done some that were relative cakewalks, others where bolts were corroded and/or pre-stretched and fatigued. Your mechanic will have taken the worst-case situation into account when he estimates the job. Removing broken bolts, plus tapping and installing threaded inserts, can really stretch this job. The aw-gosh list can be pretty significant on our old and sometimes-neglected cars, and that drags the bid prices up for this class of repair service.
Factory new water pump with plastic impeller.
Rollers and bearings, and the lever bushing
Worn gears including possible cam (2), crankshaft, and oil pump.
Rebuild kit for the tensioner, including seals and the boot, plus a NEW tensioner bolt with sealant on it.
Factory Porsche or Gates timing belt. NOT the Conti.
New fluids including oil and proper coolant, plus sealing washers for the oil and coolant galley drain plugs.
Has a proper belt tension measuring tool and the workshop manuals.
Warranty
If all those things and a known 928-savvy mechanic, then $3400 is not too outrageous these days.
I spend the best part of a long day changing the belt and bits. There's always a lot of cleaning to do on the way in and out on this project, and I tend to dream up a list of TISDWIAIT items to extend the project beyond the listed basics. So it can stretch over a couple days especially if I need to have more bits shipped in. The first time I ran video cameras and narrated the disassembly and reassembly. It proved invaluable when I didn't remember perfectly exactly where and which parts were used in each step. It's essential that all the pieces go back where they should and with proper torque and treatment.
Some others here who turn wrenches professionally might chime in with their opinions. I've done some that were relative cakewalks, others where bolts were corroded and/or pre-stretched and fatigued. Your mechanic will have taken the worst-case situation into account when he estimates the job. Removing broken bolts, plus tapping and installing threaded inserts, can really stretch this job. The aw-gosh list can be pretty significant on our old and sometimes-neglected cars, and that drags the bid prices up for this class of repair service.
10-13-2018, 02:42 PM
#4
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928 Specialists have a handy timing belt replacement parts list that lets you choose all the needed parts. If you use an aftermarket belt and a GEBA waterpump, the total comes out to ~$800 If you use a factory belt and a factory pump the total is $1500. If you needed replacement cam gears, you could spend another 850, a crank gear is $175, steel oil pump gear is $125. So with all new factory bits, worst case you're at $2600 in parts without any labor. Not that you need all this stuff, but you might.
More important is who is doing the job and do they know what they're doing?
More important is who is doing the job and do they know what they're doing?
10-13-2018, 03:21 PM
#5
Former Vendor
$3400 is too much for just a timing belt and too low to replace water pump, gears, rollers, etc. with factory parts.
Define what is included for that price.
Define what is included for that price.
10-13-2018, 04:48 PM
#6
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10-13-2018, 05:47 PM
#7
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If they are charging $399 for WP, that's probably not a Laso with the markup. So, sounds likely parts <$800 and >$2500 for labor?
10-12 hr job is the typical wp/tb job I've been told.
$3,400 is too much.
10-12 hr job is the typical wp/tb job I've been told.
$3,400 is too much.
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10-13-2018, 10:04 PM
#8
Burning Brakes
Ok, this is kind of a generalization, but let me say this: I would never put a USD 399.00 water pump in my 928.
Consequently, I also wonder how much the person who made the quote really knows about what he's getting into.
Just my opinion.
Consequently, I also wonder how much the person who made the quote really knows about what he's getting into.
Just my opinion.
10-13-2018, 10:16 PM
#9
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10-14-2018, 12:45 PM
#10
Nordschleife Master
I would strongly question how much they know about 928s.
A $400 water pump is a bit sketchy. With the markup the shop will put on it, I would be very suspicious. What brand?
"Tensioner as needed" is also sketchy. Keep in mind that the belt itself is usually not the issue. It's more often the water pump or one of the tensioner rollers that fail & destroy the belt.
I believe all of the 'trusted' 928 guys insist on replacing the rollers and rebuilding or replacing the tensioner when doing a TB/WP job.
There's also the oil pump o-rings, crank seal, timing gears and a few other WYAIT items. They add to the cost of the job, but are far cheaper to do when it's already apart.
I won't knock on you for not doing it yourself. Not everyone can or even wants to.
But make absolutely sure that the shop you take it to knows what they are doing.
You might post a pic of the estimate invoice to get some better feedback.
10-14-2018, 01:32 PM
#11
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I know having a 928 specific/experienced shop is ideal but as long as you have a competent mechanic who works on cars for a living, I don’t see the problem. I don’t think any of us diy guys have as much experience as someone who works on cars every day. I’ve done timing belts/water pumps/bits on 3 times/cars, a Ferrari 328, Porsche 928, and Acura NSX. As long as you do a little research and take some time, it’s not that hard.
10-14-2018, 01:45 PM
#12
Nordschleife Master
I know having a 928 specific/experienced shop is ideal but as long as you have a competent mechanic who works on cars for a living, I don’t see the problem. I don’t think any of us diy guys have as much experience as someone who works on cars every day. I’ve done timing belts/water pumps/bits on 3 times/cars, a Ferrari 328, Porsche 928, and Acura NSX. As long as you do a little research and take some time, it’s not that hard.
Maybe.
Or they are just doing what they know and aren't doing the specific things necessary to the 928.
Ask Greg, or Sean, or Stan, or Dave how many TB/WP jobs they have to 'fix' when they were done wrong.
I know that Sean regularly laments how many cheap Chinese water pumps he has in his scrap pile.
10-14-2018, 02:43 PM
#13
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OP's close to Detroit. Can't one of the Michigan crew recommend a better place to take it? Maybe change the thread title to "Need a Michigan 928 Mechanic"
10-14-2018, 03:52 PM
#14
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First:
this -^
~22 years ago when I bought my '91GT I thought this too. 22 years and high-double-digits of timing belt jobs later I know the truth.
True. To a certain extent. There are a lot of minor to major variations on the belt system and belt parts across the years. A little research on MY'19XX may not apply to MY'19YY. It's not what you don't know that kills you: It's what you think is true that isn't true that kills you.
It is this when coupled with my last sentence above that trouble begins.
Roughly 9 out of 10 928s that I see for the first time have something wrong with the belt system that requires immediate remedial work or requires that the belt system be serviced well in advance of schedule.
Of the remaining roughly 10% only *three* have not had something wrong with them that couldn't be found until it was taken apart.
That's right: I've only ever seen 3 928s where there was nothing wrong with be belt system. In this context "wrong" spans missing belt teeth to unreplaced worn parts that cause premature wear (i.e. costs you money before it should be necessary.)
Years ago I gave up being 'boogled' by how even the seemingly simplest things, like an oil change, could be !@#$ed-up by folks that charge money to work on 928s.
I'm totally sure that there are many folks out there that can do a 928 belt service and get it right. But, unless they are involved in the 928 community it's hard to know if any specific person meets that metric without taking apart one they've done.
As long as you do a little research and take some time, it’s not that hard.
Ask Greg, or Sean, or Stan, or Dave how many TB/WP jobs they have to 'fix' when they were done wrong.
Of the remaining roughly 10% only *three* have not had something wrong with them that couldn't be found until it was taken apart.
That's right: I've only ever seen 3 928s where there was nothing wrong with be belt system. In this context "wrong" spans missing belt teeth to unreplaced worn parts that cause premature wear (i.e. costs you money before it should be necessary.)
Years ago I gave up being 'boogled' by how even the seemingly simplest things, like an oil change, could be !@#$ed-up by folks that charge money to work on 928s.
I'm totally sure that there are many folks out there that can do a 928 belt service and get it right. But, unless they are involved in the 928 community it's hard to know if any specific person meets that metric without taking apart one they've done.
10-14-2018, 10:21 PM
#15
Former Vendor
First:
this -^
~22 years ago when I bought my '91GT I thought this too. 22 years and high-double-digits of timing belt jobs later I know the truth.
True. To a certain extent. There are a lot of minor to major variations on the belt system and belt parts across the years. A little research on MY'19XX may not apply to MY'19YY. It's not what you don't know that kills you: It's what you think is true that isn't true that kills you.
It is this when coupled with my last sentence above that trouble begins.
Roughly 9 out of 10 928s that I see for the first time have something wrong with the belt system that requires immediate remedial work or requires that the belt system be serviced well in advance of schedule.
Of the remaining roughly 10% only *three* have not had something wrong with them that couldn't be found until it was taken apart.
That's right: I've only ever seen 3 928s where there was nothing wrong with be belt system. In this context "wrong" spans missing belt teeth to unreplaced worn parts that cause premature wear (i.e. costs you money before it should be necessary.)
Years ago I gave up being 'boogled' by how even the seemingly simplest things, like an oil change, could be !@#$ed-up by folks that charge money to work on 928s.
I'm totally sure that there are many folks out there that can do a 928 belt service and get it right. But, unless they are involved in the 928 community it's hard to know if any specific person meets that metric without taking apart one they've done.
this -^
~22 years ago when I bought my '91GT I thought this too. 22 years and high-double-digits of timing belt jobs later I know the truth.
True. To a certain extent. There are a lot of minor to major variations on the belt system and belt parts across the years. A little research on MY'19XX may not apply to MY'19YY. It's not what you don't know that kills you: It's what you think is true that isn't true that kills you.
It is this when coupled with my last sentence above that trouble begins.
Roughly 9 out of 10 928s that I see for the first time have something wrong with the belt system that requires immediate remedial work or requires that the belt system be serviced well in advance of schedule.
Of the remaining roughly 10% only *three* have not had something wrong with them that couldn't be found until it was taken apart.
That's right: I've only ever seen 3 928s where there was nothing wrong with be belt system. In this context "wrong" spans missing belt teeth to unreplaced worn parts that cause premature wear (i.e. costs you money before it should be necessary.)
Years ago I gave up being 'boogled' by how even the seemingly simplest things, like an oil change, could be !@#$ed-up by folks that charge money to work on 928s.
I'm totally sure that there are many folks out there that can do a 928 belt service and get it right. But, unless they are involved in the 928 community it's hard to know if any specific person meets that metric without taking apart one they've done.
As I tell almost everyone, I redo more timing belt jobs than I actually start, from scratch. Many, many more.
There's an infinite amount of ways to screw this job up....every time I'm sure I've seen them all, someone comes in with another.
If it wasn't so damn expensive for people that are paying to do this job the second or third time, it would be funny!