B-ran

True story, I read about his opinions on it in A Brief History of Time

Luciendar21

Well, I'm not going to buy it if the owner won't come to $10k, maybe $11k... I would say any running $10k 911 is a good deal...


... A $10k 911 that has all service records from the original purchase to today.


Admittedly it's a $10k 911 because it has 185k mi and has never had the IMSB done, and could need a clutch really at any time. If I buy it and the clutch never goes, it'll be a great deal. If I buy it and the clutch goes, it'll be a $13-14k 911 with 185k and a brand new clutch, RMS, and IMSB, and if I buy it and IMSB goes, then I'll be out $6-7k and rather unhappy.


I'm still assessing if that risk is worth taking, but leaning on the yes side if the owner respects my offer.

Luciendar21

Let me first say, in regards to the comparative performance of Viggen vs Turbo it would appear I was wrong. If the Turbo's straight line performance (highway performance) is superior to a GT3, then it would definitely beat a Viggen even in it's sweet spot. I was working off the incorrect assumption that the Turbo was a hair slower across the entire range than the GT3.

I can also tell you that a GT3 will match and even has a slight edge over a Viggen, even in the Viggen's sweet spot. I can tell you this because as sure as I am that you can get people in a tizzy by mentioning Saab in a Porsche forum, you can also get a Porsche driver to try and race you by passing them angrily. For some reason Porsche drivers don't like to be passed...



Scenario: GT3 driver is in front of me on the highway in the right lane. In front of him is some idiot doing 20 under the speed limit. In the left lane is a long line of traffic, so we're both stuck there behind this slowpoke. Suddenly, there is a brake in the left lane, so I floor it and fly by the GT3 and whatever POS car was in front of him, dropping back into the right lane to find oh-so-sweet open road. But hey, suddenly the GT3 is right on my *** (at like 80ish), so I floor it and so do they. They kept pace, right up until the lanes cleared, then they tried to pass... I think from 60-90 (passing the slowpoke and getting on it) we were pretty evenly matched, but over 100 they started to make headway. The Viggen's acceleration stays very strong up to about 130mph, but the GT3 stays strong a good while after that. Sadly I cannot say, because over about 120mph on a trafficked highway is not something I'm comfortable with, so I backed off, not to mention they were winning already anyway.

A similar experience happened a year or two earlier, only this time it was a Carrera (it was debadged and I couldn't tell you if it was a C2 or C4, 6-Speed or Tip, all I can tell you is it was a 996, and even that I can't be 100% sure on). This time there was no traffic, just open road and two drivers having fun. We lined up, shared a glance, and floored it from about 60mph. I kept pulling ahead all the way up to 120mph or so when we both backed off. Knowing the car, I'm sure I wouldn't have been all that far ahead at 130mph. The 996 (even a Carrera) would probably have caught up in the 140s, and of course would have kept on pounding even after I hit the limit at 145-147.

It's a fact though, stock for stock, I can pass you (get ahead of you) in your C2 or C4 on the highway and there is nothing you can do about it (unless you want to keep going past 130mph in which case I'm going to let you win). It's one of the very thrilling things about a Viggen, doing that to drivers of various makes and models who have no idea what they're up against.

I am not saying a Viggen is the best car ever, I'm just saying in this one regard it is very, very good. A lot of cars are much better in corners, or off the line, or have higher top speed. On a track it'd lose to a 911 of any era or trim every time, it'd lose to a lot of cars. The chassis is crap for anything other than highway and the FWD sucks at corners and off-the-line. The reason I love the Viggen so much is because in a daily driver, the highway is the place you really want to use your speed, and that's right where it has it.

Luciendar21

In a Viggen 120mph is smooth as silk. Excellent aero (something the 911 and 9-3 share in common) goes a long way to making high-speeds comfortable. I can't attest to top speed above 140mph, but I can tell you it's still quite comfortable at 135-ish.

With nice smooth highway-style corners... the Saab just wafts you along. If more highways were unlimited, I would go everywhere at 120mph in the Viggen.

TonyTwoBags

Viggens are about 1-2s slower 60-100 than 996 manual coupes based on the interwebs numbers.

This enthusiast has some cool ones. I dig the SPG more than the Viggen.

DTMiller

I'm convinced.

Luciendar21

Both of his cars are quite nice, but his SPG is in a whole other realm. Out of his two cars, I'd pick the SPG too. He's was trying to sell that Viggen for years (too many cars). Last I heard he sold it last year.

My car, for reference:


Who knows, maybe I am wrong and even the Carrera can outpace the Viggen. Maybe that experience was a one-off, either the driver wasn't pushing it or the Viggen fared better in the 8 years since it's production (I'm sure neither car has the full factory-spec HP after 8 years). Maybe a million other things.... frankly, I don't care. Ultimately I don't drive the Viggen for speed... if I wanted a race car I chose the wrong platform. I drive it for fun... and boy on the highway is it. Well, and for practicality.

Maybe if I get the 996 the wife and I will go really put them through their paces and settle this.

Anywho, I really didn't start this thread to compare apples to oranges. They are two completely different types of vehicle. All I wanted to compare was the cost of maintenance and whether or not my already expensive to repair Viggen had prepared my expectations for what a Porsche would cost.

PeaCar

Porsche guys get a little sensitive when the Saab talks kicks up

Always give a car credit where it is deserved, Saab figured out turbocharging and had it dialled by the late 1980s. Saab absolutely owned it. Then Trionic came along, re-wrote spark/fuel/boost management textbooks.

The thing nobody here has pointed out, a T5 or T7 Saab will have A LOT more power at sea level in a temperate area vs. say SoCal mountains on a hot day. Take the car up the continent to somewhere dry and hot, and the car becomes pretty lethargic. Saabs will not pre-detonate, so performance will be dialled back considerably if conditions are not very good. All Saabs have sensitive pre-ignition detection from late 1983 onwards, this allowed the cars to be run on any grade of fuel. Most Saab owners ran their cars on regular....There's a big difference between 85/87 octane and 94, especially when you are pulling full boost sustained for a period of time

Saab T7 B235R cars have an overboost feature, where under the right conditions and the use of very high octane fuel (94), you get an extra 20hp and 30-40ftlbs at like 2,850 RPMS. To make that much more power so low on the rev range is a strong advantage.

And like it keeps getting pointed out, the 1/4 mile, top speed, drag, circuit...whatever, the fact that Saab is a family car becomes apparent.

But yeah, Saab are 'ugly', so they suck lol.

But to the OP, owning and loving both Pcars and Saabs, there is a big difference in maintenance and repair costs. If you are DIY inclined, you can reduce this; however, rarely does a Saab hit you with a DIY repair cost that is the value of the car. The 996 has a flawed engine design, which keeps the purchase price of these cars low, and thus the 996 has a bit of a reputation for being a liability. When have you ever heard of a Saab with an H-motor where an owner cuts open to inspect oil filters and use oil analysis like a kidney patient on dialysis? I mean, part of 996 ownership is utterly ridiculous.

Luciendar21

I run 93... 91 when I have to in the Saab, and in my neck of the woods it's all between 10-500ft above sea level, temperate climate, so on. In a sense the point is that if you're close enough that sort of thing matters, the cars are pretty comparable.

I bought the Viggen for $4700, good ones'll run you $6-9k depending on mileage (I'm at 191k ish now, bought it at 146k). Last clutch job (and some voluntary work like engine mounts, etc.) ran just under $7k (admittedly I was not happy). All my repair work added up and I'm over $20k.

I think, at least in my case, it's prepared me reasonably well, at least for maintenance costs. Repair costs is a whole other story, but this forum and other research online has helped me have a reasonably informed perspective about the likelihood of engine failure and the costs associated with it. Ultimately, I think about it in terms of risk. If I buy this particular car, I'd consider the chances of needing to do a clutch replacement 45% during my tenure. Tires, 100%, brakes, 100%. IMSB... I'll replace it with the clutch if I do the clutch, otherwise I'd say 1%, maybe 1.5% chance of catastrophic failure. I'll get the spin-on adapter, magnetic drain plug, and change every 3000, but it doesn't really affect that chance, only the potential chance I might be able to catch it and save the engine if it happens.

kmagnuss

Actually NA cars suffer from altitude much worse than FI cars... this is why planes started using turbojets instead of NA engines. You should know this... the whole born from jets thing and all.

PeaCar

$7k, yikes. I've never seen a repair that high on a Saab in my life

5CHN3LL

A NA '99 - with the "slow" engine - goes like stink up to 130. The 130 to 150 pull is long, and puts you at redline in fifth...which leaves you asking just one question...

...do I try to grab sixth, or live with only five? Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement, I've kinda lost track myself. But being this is a 996, the slowest supercar in the world, with an engine that can blow your wallet clean apart, you have to ask yourself..."do I feel lucky?" Well? Do ya, punk?

Rev limit in second comes at about 70ish. A couple of seconds into third will put you past 100. For a car with 300HP, the 996 has grunt. The only pain comes at any speeds beyond 100; the wind resistance consumes an ever-increasing amount of horsepower regardless of how sweet the car is in the wind tunnel. If I was less of a p***y, I would dial back the angle on my wing to 4 degrees, but frankly I really like the feeling of the rear wheels being stuffed into the ground at speed, even at the expense of faster quicker.

DTMiller

Schneider, just buy a 9-3 and experience real speed.

FRUNKenstein

Speed incarnate

JimmyB

I get to be Vin Diesel! Spasibo, Kalash