Maintenance Costs: 996 Carrera vs Saab 9-3 Viggen (or other cars in general)
04-13-2017, 11:15 AM
#61
Advanced
Thread Starter
In the real world, I'm not expecting the Porsche to be faster than the Viggen. From 45-115, the Viggen is an absolute beast. I've had guys out for "pleasure cruises" with their ladies "race" me on the highway and most cars just can't keep up. Admittedly this is becoming less and less true, the latest Vettes are faster, the new big Mustangs are faster, I'm sure GT3s are faster... I honestly can't say about the 996 Turbo... probably close to a dead heat. I'm sure 997 and 991 Turbos would beat it and true exotics like Ferrari, I wouldn't even suggest I'm in the same category.
With that said, outside of the highway, I'd lose hands down. Front wheel drive just can't compete with rear or all wheel drive. The Viggen'd outpace my WRX (02 Bugeye) on the highway, but in the corners the WRX would be gone (the turbo lag was also much worse in the WRX, although it did rev higher). The thing about the Viggen is that the power is just there, the turbo kicks in by 1700-1800RPM under acceleration compared to the WRX's 2500RPM, and even before the turbo kicks in, the power is still there. Driving the Viggen hard feels like you're floating around on a cloud... every time you put your foot down you just wooosh forward.
That's the thing, the woosh, that feeling of being on a cloud. Yes, the Viggen's suspension is hard (harder than the WRX), but the seats are exceedingly comfortable and the interior is well apportioned, you can drive for hundreds of miles and not be uncomfortable. It also gets decent mileage (27mpg average vs the WRXs 23mpg) and has the biggest trunk you'll find outside of a full blown wagon. All this adds up to a simple fact: The Viggen is one of the best daily drivers ever made. It's not the only one, the E39 M5 has more room in the cabin but way worse fuel economy, the 02-07 WRX's AWD is fantastic in the winter at the sacrifice of some creature comforts, but both of these are also absolutely fantastic cars.
The thing is, the Viggen is my wife's DD and her baby... and I've always said, if I win the lottery, my ideal summer DD would be a 911 (a latest MY Turbo). They have a reputation of reliability, they have a pure driving experience, they have enough room for my wife and I and our luggage in a pinch, and they have presence... I could go to a company event and have my coworkers go "Wow, you have a Porsche!" in a way that the Saab or WRX would not. I did not win the lottery, but I do think I might have found a great deal on a 996...
On the Supercar/Not-Supercar argument, I'm afraid I come down on the Not-Supercar side... with a caveat. The 911 is a fantastic sports car, the pinnacle of a sports car really, but it's still a sports car. I also would not consider a Lamborghini Gallardo or Audi R8 to be supercars. There is a clear Porsche supercar from the 996 era, the Carrera GT, and it would sit comfortably in a car park alongside the Lamborghini Diablo/Murciélago, Ferrari 360/F430, or a Mercedes SLR McLaren. The caveat is that the GT2 really brakes that threshold, and GT3 comes right up against it (as does the Gallardo Superlegera and the Nissan GT-R). I don't think anyone would deny that the GT2 is a supercar.
With that said, outside of the highway, I'd lose hands down. Front wheel drive just can't compete with rear or all wheel drive. The Viggen'd outpace my WRX (02 Bugeye) on the highway, but in the corners the WRX would be gone (the turbo lag was also much worse in the WRX, although it did rev higher). The thing about the Viggen is that the power is just there, the turbo kicks in by 1700-1800RPM under acceleration compared to the WRX's 2500RPM, and even before the turbo kicks in, the power is still there. Driving the Viggen hard feels like you're floating around on a cloud... every time you put your foot down you just wooosh forward.
That's the thing, the woosh, that feeling of being on a cloud. Yes, the Viggen's suspension is hard (harder than the WRX), but the seats are exceedingly comfortable and the interior is well apportioned, you can drive for hundreds of miles and not be uncomfortable. It also gets decent mileage (27mpg average vs the WRXs 23mpg) and has the biggest trunk you'll find outside of a full blown wagon. All this adds up to a simple fact: The Viggen is one of the best daily drivers ever made. It's not the only one, the E39 M5 has more room in the cabin but way worse fuel economy, the 02-07 WRX's AWD is fantastic in the winter at the sacrifice of some creature comforts, but both of these are also absolutely fantastic cars.
The thing is, the Viggen is my wife's DD and her baby... and I've always said, if I win the lottery, my ideal summer DD would be a 911 (a latest MY Turbo). They have a reputation of reliability, they have a pure driving experience, they have enough room for my wife and I and our luggage in a pinch, and they have presence... I could go to a company event and have my coworkers go "Wow, you have a Porsche!" in a way that the Saab or WRX would not. I did not win the lottery, but I do think I might have found a great deal on a 996...
On the Supercar/Not-Supercar argument, I'm afraid I come down on the Not-Supercar side... with a caveat. The 911 is a fantastic sports car, the pinnacle of a sports car really, but it's still a sports car. I also would not consider a Lamborghini Gallardo or Audi R8 to be supercars. There is a clear Porsche supercar from the 996 era, the Carrera GT, and it would sit comfortably in a car park alongside the Lamborghini Diablo/Murciélago, Ferrari 360/F430, or a Mercedes SLR McLaren. The caveat is that the GT2 really brakes that threshold, and GT3 comes right up against it (as does the Gallardo Superlegera and the Nissan GT-R). I don't think anyone would deny that the GT2 is a supercar.
04-13-2017, 11:50 AM
#62
Viggen weights 3,000+, 230hp
996s start at 3,000 lbs & 300-320hp. GT3 at a conservative 380 & TT @ 420 is a different league.
The gearing is very different, but it still doesn't override the gaping difference in power to weight.
04-13-2017, 12:02 PM
#64
Advanced
Thread Starter
I hope you don't really believe what you're saying here. A 996TT beats a Viggen in the 1/4 mile by about 4 seconds. A 996.2 runs it in 13ish, while a Viggen needs mid to high 14s when being kind. Totally get what you're saying about the 'feel' of the turbo (gearing as well) and I've put my share of miles on Saab turbos. May even buy one down the road. But let's be honest about reality.
Viggen weights 3,000+, 230hp
996s start at 3,000 lbs & 300-320hp. GT3 at a conservative 380 & TT @ 420 is a different league.
The gearing is very different, but it still doesn't override the gaping difference in power to weight.
Viggen weights 3,000+, 230hp
996s start at 3,000 lbs & 300-320hp. GT3 at a conservative 380 & TT @ 420 is a different league.
The gearing is very different, but it still doesn't override the gaping difference in power to weight.
- To clarify, highway speeds means rolling start of 45-70mph and top speeds of 120-130mph where the risks cause drivers to back off the throttle and say "it's not worth it".
Are you saying that a 996 Turbo is faster than a 996 GT3? If so, then I have this wrong and the turbo would definitely outpace the Viggen at highway speeds... from personal experience, a 996 GT3 will outpace the Viggen even at highway, a Carrera simply will not (not sure if it was a C2 or C4).
04-13-2017, 12:51 PM
#65
Race Director
MKI GT3 made 360HP. MKI Turbo made 415, with 444 for X51 Turbo cars. The GT2 makes 489HP.
From slowest to fastest (at least from A to B): NA 996, GT3, Turbo, GT2.
From slowest to fastest (at least from A to B): NA 996, GT3, Turbo, GT2.
04-13-2017, 12:52 PM
#66
Rennlist Member
Lucie, out of curiosity what makes this car a great deal in your mind? I'm not saying it's not...
04-13-2017, 12:55 PM
#67
Burning Brakes
996tt is significantly faster than a 996gt3 (in a straight line).
I also find it hard to believe you'd walk a stock 996 on the highway in a Viggen. Do a 40-130 timed video and post it up. Or find a local 996 owner to run a rolling start 1/2 mile with you at a local event.
I also find it hard to believe you'd walk a stock 996 on the highway in a Viggen. Do a 40-130 timed video and post it up. Or find a local 996 owner to run a rolling start 1/2 mile with you at a local event.
04-13-2017, 12:55 PM
#68
Are you saying that a 996 Turbo is faster than a 996 GT3? If so, then I have this wrong and the turbo would definitely outpace the Viggen at highway speeds... from personal experience, a 996 GT3 will outpace the Viggen even at highway, a Carrera simply will not (not sure if it was a C2 or C4).
04-13-2017, 01:55 PM
#69
Race Director
At (what is now) San Diego Porsche some years ago, there was a GT2 on the showroom floor priced oddly. It was too expensive to be used, but too cheap to be brand new, so I asked for the story. A regular customer came in, bought the car (cash), drove it 60 miles over 2 weeks, and sold it back because he know he would eventually die in that car. He "downgraded" to a GT3 or a Turbo.
This is the only person I'm aware of who has spent more money in a shorter period of time on a car he doesn't actually still own than John Ireland.
This is the only person I'm aware of who has spent more money in a shorter period of time on a car he doesn't actually still own than John Ireland.
04-13-2017, 02:44 PM
#71
Intermediate
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Correct
I think you're being deceived by the feel of speed versus actual speed. 120 is very smooth and there's nothing worrisome about it in the 996. In a Saab 120 feels like hooning a sport bike.
The 996TT is a supercar. 200mph capable chassis, ludicrous acceleration. It's not in the same category as a Viggen. Just look at the numbers. I'd love to have a GT3 and may get that chance someday. But I don't know or care if a TT or GT3 is faster, I just know that my personality type should stick with naturally aspirated sports cars. For a relatively tame sedan-type, I can stay out of trouble with a Viggen. Me and a TT would not end well, they're just too much car. I respect them enough to know that.
I think you're being deceived by the feel of speed versus actual speed. 120 is very smooth and there's nothing worrisome about it in the 996. In a Saab 120 feels like hooning a sport bike.
The 996TT is a supercar. 200mph capable chassis, ludicrous acceleration. It's not in the same category as a Viggen. Just look at the numbers. I'd love to have a GT3 and may get that chance someday. But I don't know or care if a TT or GT3 is faster, I just know that my personality type should stick with naturally aspirated sports cars. For a relatively tame sedan-type, I can stay out of trouble with a Viggen. Me and a TT would not end well, they're just too much car. I respect them enough to know that.
The B235R Saabs are fabulous machines. As pointed out on a prior page from a 9-5 Aero owner, and I had a wagon and a sedan, until you've driven one...
The Trionic engine management system that Saab developed is really something very special, the power than can be produced from 4cylinders on these cars is just silly. You can even modify displacement, cams, fuel, turbo and the car can map itself instantly. Any grade of fuel, altitude, driving style...non issue. A worthwhile read.
As for the chassis, well...it's no 911, but the longer wheelbase makes for some pretty stable 140mph operation, been there done that.
And yes, midrange acceleration, say 30mph-100 the Saab B235Rs spank the 911TT! So playing with a Saab on the interstate can be a very embarrassing experience for a Porsche owner.
Not to bash the 911/996/911TT, but Saabs are not to be taken lightly. Sports car/super car vs. sporty family/executive car, I mean, to compare apples and oranges for their nutritional value is one thing, but taste/personal preference/appetite/desire is a whole other issue, it really depends on what kind of driving one is looking to do.
04-13-2017, 03:33 PM
#72
Three Wheelin'
Hmm, I never thought I would have a chance to bring this out on Porsche forum. But man, too easy.
I love my Saab like I love my ganja
I’ll smoke ya v-8 like I smoke marijuana
Back up boy and show some respect
My Saab Viggen has a 4 cylinder ecotec
When I go out people wanna see my ride
They always stare at the "Born from Jets" on the side
I painted my hood black for that carbon fiber look
My windshield wiper lights that off tha fu**ng hook
I took off my hubcaps cause they give me better times
When I rip a new track I’m stunnin on my rhymes
My exhaust turned sideways with a 5 inch tip
I raced a z06 and took home his pink slip
I got a new spoiler from J.C. whitney
It's a 15 inch doublestak worth every penny
APC decals and two racing stripes
4 ion blue daytime runiing lights
When I take off tha front tires go up in smoke
And chevy’s with 350’s ain’t nothing but a joke
Went to Pep Boys and bought all the neon lights
Its like Las Vegas when you see me at night
Don’t mess with tha turbo 2.3 cause it’ll send ya home
Cryin lika fat kid that dropped his ice cream cone
When ya see my comin get outta my way
I gotta cruise tha mall cause you know its Friday
I doing loud fly-bys all down tha highway
Bumping some techno with my visor turned sideways
If you wanna race ya *** will get tossed
I throw in it neutral and rev up the exhaust
I’m gonna leave your *** in a world on pain
My adrenaline rushin with tha Swedish turbo in my veins
Nutra slam it in drive when the light turns green
And I’ll eat a Saleen like ya momma lean cusine
I got another victory in the "domestic basher"
I’ll pull in front of you and throw on my flashers
When ya lost you called me a cheater
Ya just couldn't hang with the 2.3 liter
Tha Viggen is more like a rocket than it is a car
You’ll be sayin to ya self “damn is that a Aero car”
Don’t mess with Saabs cause they’re outta ya class
I wait till ya get beside me trying ta pass
Let ya hear tha turbo when I step on tha gas
Next thing ya know your *** is finishin last
I fix you a "Saab" burger with some viggen sauce
You’re *** will be fired cause Saab is tha boss
Is NOT called nitrious tha **** is called called NOS
You should know by now your life is a loss
It’s about time you stop driving all them wrecks
Get a job at hardees and save all ya checks
Or sue KFC for falling on ya neck
And when you get paid buy yourself a Viggen ecotec
And another one
Rollin down the strip just hollerin’ at b***hes
My Saab is bouncing cut the springs 3 inches
My neons are flashing with the beat of my bass
Just another Friday night and my Viggen ready to race
I got mad props for days from all the races that I’m winning
And when I’m stopped at a redlight my hubcaps keep spinning
My Seat is layed back got my hat cocked to the side
My skin may be white but I claim Swedish pride
My FWD is just burning up the streets
While I got your head bobbin to this cold *** beat
Tearing down you block with my crazy *** drivin’
I’m ripping through your town like hurricane Ivan
Got the music blaring from my audiovox speakers
The crowd parts in half when I hit the strobes in my blinkers
People gather around looking kinda curious
They all wanted to know if I’m in the Fast and the Furious.
I got out of my car with my pants just saggin
Then popped open my hood so I could start bragging
Chrome exhaust tip with built in LED lights
Custom cold air intake made from PVC pipe
2 Jensen subs in the trunk that are bangin’ hard
Grill from Home Depot made from Gutter Guard
Reving up my exhaust at everything I drive by
Saw a Camero in the slow lane and gave him a ricer fly by
I got your mirrors vibrating from the bass of my subs
I told my momma for Crimus I want the Giovanni Dubs
I got Viggen symbols on the back of my car
If you could read Swedish it would say “Super fast car”
I got a carbon fiber wing that stands 3 ft high
It it was any bigger I’d be flyin’ in the sky
Fools driving driving domestics know that imports are superior
I got 15 horsepower just by painting my interior
I got more horsepower than the phonebooks got pages
And my speedometer reads 140 on my indiglo gauges
I got purple neons underneath that keep the ground lit
3 more paychecks and I’ll have my body kit
Got decals on the side of all the sponsors I wanna get
And they’ll all coming crawling cause this songs about to hit
I gotta get my Viggen ready for the road to Nopi
When the judges see my car I’ll get the first place trophy
I’ll smoke any car at Hot Import Nights
The only thing you will see is my altezza taillights
Cause everybody knows Saabs are the fastest car yet
I’ll eat a mustang for breakfast and sh*t out a corvette
I love my Saab like I love my ganja
I’ll smoke ya v-8 like I smoke marijuana
Back up boy and show some respect
My Saab Viggen has a 4 cylinder ecotec
When I go out people wanna see my ride
They always stare at the "Born from Jets" on the side
I painted my hood black for that carbon fiber look
My windshield wiper lights that off tha fu**ng hook
I took off my hubcaps cause they give me better times
When I rip a new track I’m stunnin on my rhymes
My exhaust turned sideways with a 5 inch tip
I raced a z06 and took home his pink slip
I got a new spoiler from J.C. whitney
It's a 15 inch doublestak worth every penny
APC decals and two racing stripes
4 ion blue daytime runiing lights
When I take off tha front tires go up in smoke
And chevy’s with 350’s ain’t nothing but a joke
Went to Pep Boys and bought all the neon lights
Its like Las Vegas when you see me at night
Don’t mess with tha turbo 2.3 cause it’ll send ya home
Cryin lika fat kid that dropped his ice cream cone
When ya see my comin get outta my way
I gotta cruise tha mall cause you know its Friday
I doing loud fly-bys all down tha highway
Bumping some techno with my visor turned sideways
If you wanna race ya *** will get tossed
I throw in it neutral and rev up the exhaust
I’m gonna leave your *** in a world on pain
My adrenaline rushin with tha Swedish turbo in my veins
Nutra slam it in drive when the light turns green
And I’ll eat a Saleen like ya momma lean cusine
I got another victory in the "domestic basher"
I’ll pull in front of you and throw on my flashers
When ya lost you called me a cheater
Ya just couldn't hang with the 2.3 liter
Tha Viggen is more like a rocket than it is a car
You’ll be sayin to ya self “damn is that a Aero car”
Don’t mess with Saabs cause they’re outta ya class
I wait till ya get beside me trying ta pass
Let ya hear tha turbo when I step on tha gas
Next thing ya know your *** is finishin last
I fix you a "Saab" burger with some viggen sauce
You’re *** will be fired cause Saab is tha boss
Is NOT called nitrious tha **** is called called NOS
You should know by now your life is a loss
It’s about time you stop driving all them wrecks
Get a job at hardees and save all ya checks
Or sue KFC for falling on ya neck
And when you get paid buy yourself a Viggen ecotec
And another one
Rollin down the strip just hollerin’ at b***hes
My Saab is bouncing cut the springs 3 inches
My neons are flashing with the beat of my bass
Just another Friday night and my Viggen ready to race
I got mad props for days from all the races that I’m winning
And when I’m stopped at a redlight my hubcaps keep spinning
My Seat is layed back got my hat cocked to the side
My skin may be white but I claim Swedish pride
My FWD is just burning up the streets
While I got your head bobbin to this cold *** beat
Tearing down you block with my crazy *** drivin’
I’m ripping through your town like hurricane Ivan
Got the music blaring from my audiovox speakers
The crowd parts in half when I hit the strobes in my blinkers
People gather around looking kinda curious
They all wanted to know if I’m in the Fast and the Furious.
I got out of my car with my pants just saggin
Then popped open my hood so I could start bragging
Chrome exhaust tip with built in LED lights
Custom cold air intake made from PVC pipe
2 Jensen subs in the trunk that are bangin’ hard
Grill from Home Depot made from Gutter Guard
Reving up my exhaust at everything I drive by
Saw a Camero in the slow lane and gave him a ricer fly by
I got your mirrors vibrating from the bass of my subs
I told my momma for Crimus I want the Giovanni Dubs
I got Viggen symbols on the back of my car
If you could read Swedish it would say “Super fast car”
I got a carbon fiber wing that stands 3 ft high
It it was any bigger I’d be flyin’ in the sky
Fools driving driving domestics know that imports are superior
I got 15 horsepower just by painting my interior
I got more horsepower than the phonebooks got pages
And my speedometer reads 140 on my indiglo gauges
I got purple neons underneath that keep the ground lit
3 more paychecks and I’ll have my body kit
Got decals on the side of all the sponsors I wanna get
And they’ll all coming crawling cause this songs about to hit
I gotta get my Viggen ready for the road to Nopi
When the judges see my car I’ll get the first place trophy
I’ll smoke any car at Hot Import Nights
The only thing you will see is my altezza taillights
Cause everybody knows Saabs are the fastest car yet
I’ll eat a mustang for breakfast and sh*t out a corvette
