alpine003

Patents aside, there is no way knock off companies would be able to reproduce this with this type of tolerance and quality of materials for pennies on the dollar IMO(DLC coating for example). I don't see many owners willing to risk their expensive engines on a copy product with zero history/testing. I don't perceive any credible threat here personally.

ZuffenZeus

^^^Well said Alpine. We have enough of an investment in our cars to risk it... and most Porsche owners that have half a brain will do their research and purchase proven products before risking catastrophic damage to their engines. The best way to stop these counterfeit clowns in their tracks is educate yourself and don't buy from these people. If they've can't peddle their crap on us, they'll just move back to their usual knockoffs like "Folex" watches and "Louis Vatton" handbags.

Flat6 Innovations

I wish you were right, but that's not the case. Look at a certain company's catalog that's filled with a certain anodized parts that are knockoffs of the LN products that were not Patented.. They are sold at cut throat prices and whored out. People buy them because they are cheap.

Enough people buy them to keep that place going with all their knocked off glory. In general the following is not loyal, the way that it once was. Their was a time when anyone new to this industry was chastised for years and struggled to build their brand. No one would test your parts unless folks like Jerry Woods and others used them.. We went through all of that, and struggled for a decade before things that we developed were trusted.

Today you just buy a bigger ad and do it every month.. You produce YouTube videos that make you look like a hero, and you BUY your image. Most of the magazine articles and reviews are and too, where someone either got paid off, or got free parts for their own car. I have seen it happen first hand, and that's why I can't stand the publications as a general rule.

These people may build a reputation (since that's what others think of you) but they will always lack true character (what they think of themselves).

Part of this comes from cars being too cheap to purchase these days, coupled to modern commercialism and marketing BS. Most of these people don't know a damn thing. They have a big ad as a cover up, they don't actually do anything. Guys like us take most of what they sell to people, rip it off, and throw it away. Why? Because it's pure junk.

I remember actually receiving letters from my customers asking for info, that would supply a self addressed & stamped envelope to me. In those days you damn sure didn't buy your reputation, and image, you had to earn it. Retaining it was more difficult than acquiring it.

Then you had one chance. When you blew it, you were done.

alpine003

I agree with you on non-critical parts or parts that have been derived from a general manufacturer(IE bearings) or items that's been used in other car applications. However, what you have with The Solution is truly unique with no others having this amount of R&D for this application and no generic pieces from other manufacturers that you can "cobble" together.

Couple this to the fact that you are risking a $20k engine that affects it directly, I would hope the avg 996 owner would do their own due dillegence and have enough mental capacity to do a bit research before jumping on anything like this. The owners that are aware of potential IMS issues are already doing research about it so it would be natural that they would research something like this that's this critical to a certain degree.

Just my $.02

I welcome copycats of this as I'd like to see the material construction/tolerances/composition for kicks.

gnat

Even still most of the 996 owners are not enthusiasts.

If they know of the IMSB issue, most are just going to follow their mechanic's suggestions and would be happy to pay $400 rather than $1800 "for the same thing".

We of course know it's not the same thing, but they won't understand it.

Even for those that should be in the know, just look at what goes on around here. Even if an average owner decides they want to research the issue before deciding, it's not a subject you can just walk in, read a FAQ, and be well informed. There are just too many conflicting opinions and petty squabblings for a new person to make sense of it all in a reasonable timeframe when needing to make a decision.

Hell, just this morning we got another "look at all the pretty metal my bearing is shedding, I'll slap in an EPS roller and all will be good" followed by a "you dodged a bullet!" response in the big IMS thread. I've lost track on how many of such posts I have tried to correct much less how many other's I've seen trying to correct others.

So yeah, unfortunately, knock offs of the Solution will gain traction. I think the end result is that much line the LN bearings we'll get to a point where we just can't trust when someone says they've had the Solution installed without hard evidence about the replacement

ZuffenZeus

Gnat, I like you. I don't care what everyone on Rennlist says about you. hehehe

FRUNKenstein

^ Oh God, B3, don't encourage him.

alpine003

How much traction are you talking about?

The Solution aside, I'd be curious at the sales figures for all the current alternative bearings out there and see how much traction they've gained.

You also gotta remember that the mechanic's rep is on the line of their reco's and they will ultimately have to deal with said customer if something goes wrong.

sweet victory

If the knock offs were to gain traction, it would most likely be outside of the US due to availability.

gnat

We already know there are plenty of less that ideal shops to avoid, but they stick around because they keep getting new suckers.

Dealing with an unknowledgeable customer gives them plenty of leeway too as to what to blame a subsequent failure on.

We already know that some percentage of IMSB related motor deaths are not really the bearings fault, it's just that it is the first thing the shop sees so they stop there and blame it. The real reason will cost a lot more to find and will change nothing so the average customer won't want to pay for it.

The opposite could easily be used to cover their *** (oh, it looks like you had scored cylinders and the shedding metal took out the bearing).

Honestly speaking, if we didn't know Jake and his history of efforts on our behalf, how many of us would really know the difference if our mechanic presented us a Solution and a knock off? Even if there were visual differences, could many/any of us figure out why they were really important? Or would we ultimately end up taking the mechanic's word that the one for 1/3 the price was just as good?

The majority of us here aren't metallurgists and mechanical engineers, so we accept what sounds reasonable and temper it based on our experience of the one making the claim. For example roller bearings seem to make sense to me (more surface area for support), but Jake's commentary on that as well as the proven history of the LN bearing make me skeptical.

I trust the Solution because I'm seen enough from Jake that I trust him. My only gripe was that the dual row version wasn't available when I replaced ours last year

Schnell Gelb

Hence the suggestion to check EBay Taiwan/Asia and Baidu/Alibaba
The vertex roller bearing knock-off has already been found on EBay Taiwan and linked in this thread on Rennlist.

Flat6 Innovations

Its a constant search. Google Alerts works wonders for this, it will usually pick up a product within one day of posting. On eBay it picked up the last counterfeit in less than 6 hours.

Now, keep in mind that the product it's self is not the main focus of the Patent, its the concept and novel art of the design. There are many ways to do a similar job, but the Patents combine to lock this region down tight, it even goes over multiple ways to install the unit, and one is a 4 piece bushing that can be installed into an M97 shaft. The latest Patent is what really limits the design from being copied, as it covers external oil from ports on the engine to the IMS region as a broad spectrum novel concept. This includes, but is not limited to the IMS Solution. Change the design of the actual bearing all day long, but unless we license to you the method of oil delivery, you are going to be dead in the water. The first patent covers the plain bearing design more particularly.

Never fear, I am not done.. I have had other inventions around this, and two more Patents are pending to even further lock the doors behind us. I have spent years of my life thinking about this, and I even had another idea last night.

So, here's how you can tell a real IMS Solution from something fake. Since day one the flanges gave carried a letter and number code at the top. One alpha character, and one numeric figure, these change constantly.

Since March of 2015 all flanges have been specially etched with the first US Patent # 8,992,089. From this point forward all units will carry both Patent #s, here's the proof that we just signed off on to have the change added to include the second US Patent # 9,416,697.

Here's a figure to show these... And don't worry.. If they copy this, we can still go further to ensure that its a genuine IMS Solution, even the etching process is special.

docmirror

Congrats and thank you for your dedication to this issue on this model. Major props.