Eurocharged ECU tuning - feedback request
05-15-2017, 01:30 PM
#31
Burning Brakes
I think we may be arguing over semantics here. On the tuned N54 engines, the turbos start to fail after 15K miles and so does the fuel pump. Are they not part of the engine? I never mentioned the block internals nor suggested that some parts of a given engine are unable to withstand more punishment than others. My point is only that a tune will increase wear and tear on an engine and thus decrease its lifespan. If a particular tune shortens the lifespan of some component by 50% and said component has, say, on average a 12 year lifespan, it means that the tuned ones will start failing after 6 years instead of 12. At that stage you may no longer own the car, but it doesn't make the tune "perfectly safe".
05-15-2017, 02:40 PM
#32
Three Wheelin'
Sure it is. Actual data and facts are in extremely short supply here, and your argument that your personal experience supports your conclusion is also wrong. That's like saying "I was standing not too far away when the Chernobyl reactor exploded and four years later I was fine, so exposure to radiation doesn't cause any harm." Google "335i tune failure" and have a read.
If you upgrade the headers, you have changed a part of the engine to something other than the original design. Last time I checked, that was the very definition of a modification. And, if said headers provide better gas flow, then a custom tune may be able to get you more power by taking advantage of the better gas flow.
Here's a fact: all other things being equal, an engine producing more power is going to be under more stress and suffer extra wear and tear (strain). Whether any one particular engine or part thereof is already run within an inch of its life (and its longevity is measured in mere hours) or is under-stressed from the factory (and could last several decades) is besides the point. They will both experience increased wear and tear and thus failures as a result of being run harder. The only variable is by how much.
If you upgrade the headers, you have changed a part of the engine to something other than the original design. Last time I checked, that was the very definition of a modification. And, if said headers provide better gas flow, then a custom tune may be able to get you more power by taking advantage of the better gas flow.
Here's a fact: all other things being equal, an engine producing more power is going to be under more stress and suffer extra wear and tear (strain). Whether any one particular engine or part thereof is already run within an inch of its life (and its longevity is measured in mere hours) or is under-stressed from the factory (and could last several decades) is besides the point. They will both experience increased wear and tear and thus failures as a result of being run harder. The only variable is by how much.
My previous e92 with a N54 motor was one of the best engines at stock level but extremely under-performing. This motor was built to offer more performance than they actually deliver. The same motor is used in various BMW platforms with more performance values. A car manufacture can't build a new motor for every facelift/model they release. But they can release new performance versions with models. What actually changes? In some cases better breathing (intake, exhaust) with a re-mapped ECU. Note: BMW honors Dinan's performance upgrades.
As for my F430, all potential effects were considered including (if any) increased EGT, A/F trim, shifting parameters, etc. All within acceptable tolerances. The reason I upgraded the headers was to eliminate the aforementioned header issue and address a flat spot in the RPM range. Picking up an additional 65whp in the process was a pleasant surprise. All better for the track!
Gone are the days where OTS tunes is the only choice. My advice is to spring for bespoke tunes that's tailored for your your specific tolerances. Besides, regular maintenance and the way you drive your car (tune or not!) is key to motor longevity.
05-15-2017, 03:26 PM
#33
Burning Brakes
It has nothing to do with me having the last word, nor am I disputing anything you wrote above - except now for the note about BMW honoring Dinan upgrades... BMW doesn't honor anything once the car has been tuned. The BMW warranty does get voided, and instead Dinan - or, rather, you - pick up, i.e. pay for the remainder of the factory warranty, which is why Dinan tunes and upgrades cost twice as much as anyone else's. We are 100% in agreement that certain components of a certain platform may be able to offer considerably more performance than they may be asked to provide in certain applications (the N54 engine in the 335i being a case in point), but again, the tuned engines are on average not going to last as long as engines running on the factory tune. And again, I agree with you 100% that a custom tune tailored to your particular vehicle and your mods is the way to go as it is the only way to get all of the performance benefits from the mods - however, that's not what the OP was asking about. He was asking about putting on a pre-canned tune from EC on his (presumably otherwise stock) 2010 Cayman, and got a bunch of EC fanboys who drank the Kool-Aid telling him about how much extra power he can have on his BMW N54 or AMG M156 motor by slapping on a pre-canned tune from EC without any mention of the consequences.
05-15-2017, 09:41 PM
#34
Drifting
Sure it is. Actual data and facts are in extremely short supply here, and your argument that your personal experience supports your conclusion is also wrong. That's like saying "I was standing not too far away when the Chernobyl reactor exploded and four years later I was fine, so exposure to radiation doesn't cause any harm." Google "335i tune failure" and have a read.
If you upgrade the headers, you have changed a part of the engine to something other than the original design. Last time I checked, that was the very definition of a modification. And, if said headers provide better gas flow, then a custom tune may be able to get you more power by taking advantage of the better gas flow.
Here's a fact: all other things being equal, an engine producing more power is going to be under more stress and suffer extra wear and tear (strain). Whether any one particular engine or part thereof is already run within an inch of its life (and its longevity is measured in mere hours) or is under-stressed from the factory (and could last several decades) is besides the point. They will both experience increased wear and tear and thus failures as a result of being run harder. The only variable is by how much.
If you upgrade the headers, you have changed a part of the engine to something other than the original design. Last time I checked, that was the very definition of a modification. And, if said headers provide better gas flow, then a custom tune may be able to get you more power by taking advantage of the better gas flow.
Here's a fact: all other things being equal, an engine producing more power is going to be under more stress and suffer extra wear and tear (strain). Whether any one particular engine or part thereof is already run within an inch of its life (and its longevity is measured in mere hours) or is under-stressed from the factory (and could last several decades) is besides the point. They will both experience increased wear and tear and thus failures as a result of being run harder. The only variable is by how much.
I always show people the amount of modifications that Porsche put into the X51 upgrade for N/A engines in 996's just to gain 48HP over stock and then let people review what the chip people do - *nothing* but plug it back in and *suggest* they can give you what the factory did for zero engine modifications.
So if you have a turbo - fine - they raise the boost - but don't think you can get more than a few HP on your non boosted engines with a guy and his laptop...
X51 Power Kit
(from the tech bulletin describing installation)
"A parts set -"Carrera Powerkit"- is available to retrofit the standard engine with an increased performance of 254 kW (345 HP). The following parts in the engine are replaced, exchanged or modified to achieve this increased performance:
- new intake manifold with modified cross-section (material: sand cast aluminum );
- new intake pipe supports adapted to the form of the intake manifold;
- new exhaust manifolds with larger cross-section and optimized flow behavior;
- new cylinder heads with optimized, CNC-milled inlet ducts;
- new camshafts with larger valve stroke on the inlet side and modified inlet and outlet timing;
- inlet valve springs adapted to the enlarged valve stroke;
- modified partition box in the oil pan;
- modified maps for the DME control module.
The following steps are also taken on the vehicle:
- new underside panel in the transmission area;
- additional radiator in connection with modified front spoiler, except on the 911 Carrera 4S (996).
The higher-performance engine is also available as an option when ordering a new vehicles - 911 Carrera / 911 Carrera 4 /911 Carrera 4S /911 Targa - under Exclusive Option X51."
08-18-2017, 12:24 PM
#35
Drifting
Yes/No it depends on how aggressive the tune is. ALL manufacturers are conservative and limit the engine output to ensure that the engine is reliable through the warranty period. They use limiter maps to control the output of the engines, most Tuners safely bump the limiters to easily get more performance without affecting the long term reliability, if you go past that then you can expect reliability issues.
I can tune VWs, the cars that are pre-'09 are actually quite easy to do and Porsche use the same systems, matter of fact Porsche use the older systems, ME7 "encryption" in the VW/Audi world is considered ancient and no Tuning Protection. The newer car may have the newer systems but most Owners want to keep their warranty safe and sound.
I can tune VWs, the cars that are pre-'09 are actually quite easy to do and Porsche use the same systems, matter of fact Porsche use the older systems, ME7 "encryption" in the VW/Audi world is considered ancient and no Tuning Protection. The newer car may have the newer systems but most Owners want to keep their warranty safe and sound.
Last edited by Mark Lue; 08-18-2017 at 01:04 PM. Reason: + comment and attachment
08-22-2017, 12:13 PM
#36
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That isn't true on all cars. A $200 tune for my BMW 335i increased the HP by 60-70 with only a minor impact. But BWM left a huge amount of power on the table with that engine and it is a twin turbo. My understanding is that porsche already completely optimized the performance of the 996 NA engine so a tune wouldn't gain much.
08-22-2017, 12:17 PM
#37
For my 335i? I installed the tune myself on my n54 engine. MHD is the name of the company that provides the tune. It just required ordering the right cable, buying an Android app (for ~$200 or so), and then running the software on my mobile phone. Very cool and I'm very happy with the result.
08-23-2017, 01:02 PM
#38
Drifting
Over Android,... cutting edge stuff.
.... BUT be careful, while the majority of OBD flashes are successful there is a percentage of failed attempts resulting in bricked ECUs.
Bench recovering of a couple of these ECUs for a couple of big named Tuning companies is how I got noticed.
.... BUT be careful, while the majority of OBD flashes are successful there is a percentage of failed attempts resulting in bricked ECUs.
Bench recovering of a couple of these ECUs for a couple of big named Tuning companies is how I got noticed.