Speed limits at track days?
08-20-2015, 10:29 PM
#1
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Speed limits at track days?
I was shocked at even seeing this in print. I read the article and the author makes a good case. One of the first rules for CASC instructors is 60% of the cars capability.
It gets a little faster but that's where we begin so... perhaps we're already doing this.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/motorspo...-speed-limits/
It gets a little faster but that's where we begin so... perhaps we're already doing this.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/motorspo...-speed-limits/
08-21-2015, 09:58 AM
#2
Nordschleife Master
A lot of us enter corners above the speed limit they would like to set. I see no point in this, I would not attend their event as there is no point to it.
08-21-2015, 10:48 AM
#3
It's an interesting argument for sure. I can see the point to it. But ultimately I feel that peoples safety is in their own hands at the track. If you decide to go out in your street car, at a speed that is not safe for it to crash at, with it not prepared for taking an impact at those speeds (lack of roll cage etc...) then you are going to live with the risk that if god forbid something happens, you might not survive...
That aspect is always in motorsports, no matter how strict the safety regulations are. Also there is a wide array of safety device implementation that could be required, rollbar? rollcage? full nomex? real fire supression as opposed to a bottle, halo seats, hans devices, seat back supports, netting, the list goes on...
To implement that at an entry level track event would be hard, and to keep attendance up even harder as it gets very expensive very quickly. Obviously you can't put a price on your own safety, but we do every day we chose to go to the track with a car that doesn't have absolutely EVERYTHING in it.
I think the best strategy here is communicate the information. The research being done is good, and let's put it to good use. It should be in club news articles, or websites in DE sections, bring it up at driver meetings etc. Ultimately it is up to the individual to decide whether or not to get in that car, we are all educated well enough to notice any present safety devices. Whether you are instructor or a student.
My 0.02$$$$$$$$
That aspect is always in motorsports, no matter how strict the safety regulations are. Also there is a wide array of safety device implementation that could be required, rollbar? rollcage? full nomex? real fire supression as opposed to a bottle, halo seats, hans devices, seat back supports, netting, the list goes on...
To implement that at an entry level track event would be hard, and to keep attendance up even harder as it gets very expensive very quickly. Obviously you can't put a price on your own safety, but we do every day we chose to go to the track with a car that doesn't have absolutely EVERYTHING in it.
I think the best strategy here is communicate the information. The research being done is good, and let's put it to good use. It should be in club news articles, or websites in DE sections, bring it up at driver meetings etc. Ultimately it is up to the individual to decide whether or not to get in that car, we are all educated well enough to notice any present safety devices. Whether you are instructor or a student.
My 0.02$$$$$$$$
08-21-2015, 11:08 AM
#4
Rennlist Member
It's an interesting argument for sure. I can see the point to it. But ultimately I feel that peoples safety is in their own hands at the track. If you decide to go out in your street car, at a speed that is not safe for it to crash at, with it not prepared for taking an impact at those speeds (lack of roll cage etc...) then you are going to live with the risk that if god forbid something happens, you might not survive...
That aspect is always in motorsports, no matter how strict the safety regulations are. Also there is a wide array of safety device implementation that could be required, rollbar? rollcage? full nomex? real fire supression as opposed to a bottle, halo seats, hans devices, seat back supports, netting, the list goes on...
To implement that at an entry level track event would be hard, and to keep attendance up even harder as it gets very expensive very quickly. Obviously you can't put a price on your own safety, but we do every day we chose to go to the track with a car that doesn't have absolutely EVERYTHING in it.
I think the best strategy here is communicate the information. The research being done is good, and let's put it to good use. It should be in club news articles, or websites in DE sections, bring it up at driver meetings etc. Ultimately it is up to the individual to decide whether or not to get in that car, we are all educated well enough to notice any present safety devices. Whether you are instructor or a student.
My 0.02$$$$$$$$
That aspect is always in motorsports, no matter how strict the safety regulations are. Also there is a wide array of safety device implementation that could be required, rollbar? rollcage? full nomex? real fire supression as opposed to a bottle, halo seats, hans devices, seat back supports, netting, the list goes on...
To implement that at an entry level track event would be hard, and to keep attendance up even harder as it gets very expensive very quickly. Obviously you can't put a price on your own safety, but we do every day we chose to go to the track with a car that doesn't have absolutely EVERYTHING in it.
I think the best strategy here is communicate the information. The research being done is good, and let's put it to good use. It should be in club news articles, or websites in DE sections, bring it up at driver meetings etc. Ultimately it is up to the individual to decide whether or not to get in that car, we are all educated well enough to notice any present safety devices. Whether you are instructor or a student.
My 0.02$$$$$$$$
08-21-2015, 05:09 PM
#6
Race Director
Hitting oil or coolant is my fear.
I run water and water wetter in my car. A few guys on here are thankful I did when a coolant line to the transmission rubbed on a driveshaft and burst, spraying Rouleau Jr. about 18" behind me with 5 guys right behind him.
I run water and water wetter in my car. A few guys on here are thankful I did when a coolant line to the transmission rubbed on a driveshaft and burst, spraying Rouleau Jr. about 18" behind me with 5 guys right behind him.
08-21-2015, 05:57 PM
#7
Drifting
I'm glad this article was written - these issues have been discussed around worker campfires for many years now and finally its in the open.
- The issue is lack of uniform standards across all race tracks and among different rental groups.
- Club marque events seem to have the best standards. For all the complaints of how **** PCA lapping rules are, they run the safest events by far.
- Some groups have a pre-event mechanical car inspection by a certified mechanic and some groups don't.
- Some tracks have no mandatory number of workers required.
- There are no standards on ambulance services across North America, or the level of liability insurance, or the type of rescue equipment and what critical care licensing they are certified to. Do they have Holmatro equipment and trained people or do they require the local fire dept and what is that response time?
- Fire response truck with people in Nomex or the guy who cuts the grass around the track wearing a tee-shirt? (saw this in the U.S.)
- I've seen some really suspect helmets.
- There are wide levels of driver experience and instructor experience without any uniform standards across all groups/tracks.
- There are cars running around that are lapping way quicker then GT2 and GT3 spec race cars yet have zero safety items other then what rolled out of the dealership.
- The level of personal protection is near zero. (IE, no HANS/Nomex/elec shut off/automatic fire protection etc)
- Without standards being set, there could be a race to the bottom where other groups look at what their costs are and find hiring 10 workers puts them at an economic disadvantage so the next rental day they ask for a lower number. Car counts in a poor economy can drive safety standards as well.
- The number of cars on track, the quality of drivers around you should matter. Be worried by groups that allow extreme cars such as full on race cars or hyper cars out in your session that will be charging up behind you in your Boxster. You won't have fun and it could get messy.
- Some groups have what I call a 'super-car bias' where organizers seem to believe that just because you have a $350K (and up) car that you *must* know what you are doing and they let them loose. Its a given that some do not know how to handle the near IMSA performance of their cars. Its the guy in the 1986 944 whom is normally the best driver on the track. Yeah, the world isn't fair!
- I'm not saying that all of the above occurs locally but across North America it does. I worked a track in the southern US that was having a professional race event the next day and I was there early and went for a walk around the track and witnessed a spin in a track day session where the 75 year old worker sitting snoozing on a chair didn't see the stalled car in the middle of the track - so no flag until I started screaming at him! In the US, many of the track day workers aren't 'licensed' SCCA workers - they are part time employees (usually retirees) who disappear when real racing happens.
- People state they do this at their own risk so why the worry? So you are cool with another participant slamming into the back of you and wreaking your car or worse, injuring you? You see, it isn't just you accepting the risk of your mistakes - its also about accepting the risk of others making a mistake that affect you. In the US it can be catastrophic financially and there is a s**t lot you can do (or sue) when someone fills a Chapter 7. The loss of your car is not your biggest worry.
- This next comment for people whom know who Robin is: She has seen more grown men cry then a divorce lawyer!
- The issue is lack of uniform standards across all race tracks and among different rental groups.
- Club marque events seem to have the best standards. For all the complaints of how **** PCA lapping rules are, they run the safest events by far.
- Some groups have a pre-event mechanical car inspection by a certified mechanic and some groups don't.
- Some tracks have no mandatory number of workers required.
- There are no standards on ambulance services across North America, or the level of liability insurance, or the type of rescue equipment and what critical care licensing they are certified to. Do they have Holmatro equipment and trained people or do they require the local fire dept and what is that response time?
- Fire response truck with people in Nomex or the guy who cuts the grass around the track wearing a tee-shirt? (saw this in the U.S.)
- I've seen some really suspect helmets.
- There are wide levels of driver experience and instructor experience without any uniform standards across all groups/tracks.
- There are cars running around that are lapping way quicker then GT2 and GT3 spec race cars yet have zero safety items other then what rolled out of the dealership.
- The level of personal protection is near zero. (IE, no HANS/Nomex/elec shut off/automatic fire protection etc)
- Without standards being set, there could be a race to the bottom where other groups look at what their costs are and find hiring 10 workers puts them at an economic disadvantage so the next rental day they ask for a lower number. Car counts in a poor economy can drive safety standards as well.
- The number of cars on track, the quality of drivers around you should matter. Be worried by groups that allow extreme cars such as full on race cars or hyper cars out in your session that will be charging up behind you in your Boxster. You won't have fun and it could get messy.
- Some groups have what I call a 'super-car bias' where organizers seem to believe that just because you have a $350K (and up) car that you *must* know what you are doing and they let them loose. Its a given that some do not know how to handle the near IMSA performance of their cars. Its the guy in the 1986 944 whom is normally the best driver on the track. Yeah, the world isn't fair!
- I'm not saying that all of the above occurs locally but across North America it does. I worked a track in the southern US that was having a professional race event the next day and I was there early and went for a walk around the track and witnessed a spin in a track day session where the 75 year old worker sitting snoozing on a chair didn't see the stalled car in the middle of the track - so no flag until I started screaming at him! In the US, many of the track day workers aren't 'licensed' SCCA workers - they are part time employees (usually retirees) who disappear when real racing happens.
- People state they do this at their own risk so why the worry? So you are cool with another participant slamming into the back of you and wreaking your car or worse, injuring you? You see, it isn't just you accepting the risk of your mistakes - its also about accepting the risk of others making a mistake that affect you. In the US it can be catastrophic financially and there is a s**t lot you can do (or sue) when someone fills a Chapter 7. The loss of your car is not your biggest worry.
- This next comment for people whom know who Robin is: She has seen more grown men cry then a divorce lawyer!
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08-21-2015, 10:22 PM
#8
Rennlist Member
interesting ideas here. I do not support specific speed limits but do control my students to drive within their limits.
BTW I have 2 1986 944 turbo track cars
BTW I have 2 1986 944 turbo track cars
08-22-2015, 12:22 AM
#9
Instructor
I've been a DE guy for a lot of years now, and the increase in interest over the last 4-5 years has been pretty astonishing. Clubs are happy because they're routinely selling out, but it also creates an urgency or pressure to keep people moving through the ranks so we don't have huge run groups in a specific area of experience. Unfortunately, as with any testosterone-laden activity like this, you get guys (make no mistake, ladies take part too) who've spent a lot of coin on their new high HP car and they have something to prove out there, even if it's just their first or second time. People are enamored by straightaways, and get caught out on entry to the next corner because they're so focused on getting an extra 10km/h in there before they succumb to the brake.
I don't agree with speed limits, but I do agree that some changes need to be made in the following areas:
Instruction - with the 2 clubs I primarily run with, the majority of the instructors are what I would consider the best in the biz. Excellent training programs are in place that breed talented teachers, but the influx of new novice drivers has created a need for more instructors and I've found people are being promoted when maybe they aren't quite ready. The instructor is solely responsible for keeping all instructed drivers reined in when it's needed, and if it's not working then motions need to be made early in a weekend to correct the issue.
Solo students - again with the influx of new novice drivers and the volume of instructors needed to teach them, students are obtaining solo status without truly being ready for it. And I agree that there are people with an expensive/fast enough car who are promoted far too quickly because they "seem" like they should be a great driver. I've been on track with plenty race cars and even some dude in a 918 last year at CTMP who had no business being out there in the same group as me - they clearly needed someone in the right seat with them!
Timing/video equipment - rule #1 for me - any student with an instructor in the right seat is banned from any timing or video. The YouTube generation has created easy competition between folks who want to brag about their lap time, and it's crap like that that gets people in trouble - again, looking for that extra kph in top speed or that extra 10th off their lap time. I'm fine with it once you've been solo for a year or 2, because at that point it's all about fine tuning. But if you can't drive the line with your eyes closed, then you still have some other things to work on.
More class time and more exercises - there are clubs I've had the pleasure of running with where, even as a solo driver, you still participate in class discussion and on-track exercises. In class, you get to look every other person in the eye who's out on track at the same time as you, you know their name and what they drive - this commands a certain amount of trust/humility/respect. And on-track, you pair up and practice things like late passing (giving and taking), running laps 2 wide all the way around, running wide on purpose so you get a feel for how much room you have and what the surface is like out there - all things that you'll be able to reflect on should you ever find yourself in trouble.
I agree that the individual assumes all the risk in what may happen to them when they're out there. It's when someone else is affected by that individual where things get messy. For me, I make sure that I'm comfortable with who I'm on track with, and I have no shame in ratting someone out for doing something stupid. Self and peer policing is important in this game, because once there are too many "supervisors" out there, that's when the fun falls away and costs become even more prohibitive.
I don't agree with speed limits, but I do agree that some changes need to be made in the following areas:
Instruction - with the 2 clubs I primarily run with, the majority of the instructors are what I would consider the best in the biz. Excellent training programs are in place that breed talented teachers, but the influx of new novice drivers has created a need for more instructors and I've found people are being promoted when maybe they aren't quite ready. The instructor is solely responsible for keeping all instructed drivers reined in when it's needed, and if it's not working then motions need to be made early in a weekend to correct the issue.
Solo students - again with the influx of new novice drivers and the volume of instructors needed to teach them, students are obtaining solo status without truly being ready for it. And I agree that there are people with an expensive/fast enough car who are promoted far too quickly because they "seem" like they should be a great driver. I've been on track with plenty race cars and even some dude in a 918 last year at CTMP who had no business being out there in the same group as me - they clearly needed someone in the right seat with them!
Timing/video equipment - rule #1 for me - any student with an instructor in the right seat is banned from any timing or video. The YouTube generation has created easy competition between folks who want to brag about their lap time, and it's crap like that that gets people in trouble - again, looking for that extra kph in top speed or that extra 10th off their lap time. I'm fine with it once you've been solo for a year or 2, because at that point it's all about fine tuning. But if you can't drive the line with your eyes closed, then you still have some other things to work on.
More class time and more exercises - there are clubs I've had the pleasure of running with where, even as a solo driver, you still participate in class discussion and on-track exercises. In class, you get to look every other person in the eye who's out on track at the same time as you, you know their name and what they drive - this commands a certain amount of trust/humility/respect. And on-track, you pair up and practice things like late passing (giving and taking), running laps 2 wide all the way around, running wide on purpose so you get a feel for how much room you have and what the surface is like out there - all things that you'll be able to reflect on should you ever find yourself in trouble.
I agree that the individual assumes all the risk in what may happen to them when they're out there. It's when someone else is affected by that individual where things get messy. For me, I make sure that I'm comfortable with who I'm on track with, and I have no shame in ratting someone out for doing something stupid. Self and peer policing is important in this game, because once there are too many "supervisors" out there, that's when the fun falls away and costs become even more prohibitive.
08-23-2015, 10:28 PM
#10
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
I knew I'd be poking the bear with this thread. I have to say I agree with everything posted. ( wish I put money on Jumper being first in- love you for it pal)
Clearly we need to talk about this.
Clearly we need to talk about this.
08-24-2015, 10:59 AM
#12
Race Car
Speed limits defeat the purpose of DEs, IMO. That said, I've definitely seen tons of drivers out there that are driving well beyond their skill limit, including my own father who wrote off a Z06 a few years ago trying to keep up with someone 15 years younger, 10x the experience, in a much better-prepped Z06.
Doug nailed it when he said the best driver out there is the one driving the 86 944. I had an instructor once tell me everyone should start track driving in a 1960s Dodge Dart. Driving a 150hp 911 that's older than I am and getting a sunburn from waving everyone by teaches you humility, fast. And I think that's what's kept me out of the wall. I've got nothing to prove out there - I'm slower than you, end of story.
I think weeding out the ego and testosterone is the single biggest key to making track driving safer.
Doug nailed it when he said the best driver out there is the one driving the 86 944. I had an instructor once tell me everyone should start track driving in a 1960s Dodge Dart. Driving a 150hp 911 that's older than I am and getting a sunburn from waving everyone by teaches you humility, fast. And I think that's what's kept me out of the wall. I've got nothing to prove out there - I'm slower than you, end of story.
I think weeding out the ego and testosterone is the single biggest key to making track driving safer.
08-24-2015, 01:02 PM
#13
Before we blame the top speed of newbies in their high horse powered cars and go all crazy ruining track days, I would like to see a breakdown of the cause of accidents.
I know everyone has their opinion, but real data and stats are what we need to make things safer. Maybe maybe it's breaking down 944s or elderly drivers with decreasing reflexes that turn out to be the most common cause. Maybe mechanical failure is the number 1. I know everyone loves their own opinion but real data and stats don't lie.
I know everyone has their opinion, but real data and stats are what we need to make things safer. Maybe maybe it's breaking down 944s or elderly drivers with decreasing reflexes that turn out to be the most common cause. Maybe mechanical failure is the number 1. I know everyone loves their own opinion but real data and stats don't lie.
08-24-2015, 01:23 PM
#14
Before we blame the top speed of newbies in their high horse powered cars and go all crazy ruining track days, I would like to see a breakdown of the cause of accidents.
I know everyone has their opinion, but real data and stats are what we need to make things safer. Maybe maybe it's breaking down 944s or elderly drivers with decreasing reflexes that turn out to be the most common cause. Maybe mechanical failure is the number 1. I know everyone loves their own opinion but real data and stats don't lie.
I know everyone has their opinion, but real data and stats are what we need to make things safer. Maybe maybe it's breaking down 944s or elderly drivers with decreasing reflexes that turn out to be the most common cause. Maybe mechanical failure is the number 1. I know everyone loves their own opinion but real data and stats don't lie.
I don't think anyone is really trying to say all newbies in high horsepower cars are ruining track days. But I do think that modern cars with VDC/ABS etc. and suspension/tire combinations that either set the limits really high or offer less feedback than older "analog" cars only add to the issue.
Drivers of older cars don't have a light on the dash that flashes at them to save their behind when they push a little too far or ABS to keep the tires from locking up. I don't think it's just the fact that older cars are usually less powerful that they're slower, I think it's that the drivers are given so much more sensory input and are far more liable for their actions that they don't push as hard.
My personal experience with driving new dynamic control cars is that I don't like what feels like a disconnect between the mechanical parts and my hands/feet/***. While slower I prefer that basic type of driving, I know that's not for everyone and that doesn't make me think i'm a better driver than anyone in newer machinery, it's just a preference.
If you wanted to see the cars slow down turn off VDC. That would scare most drivers into knowing there's no longer a safety net to work with and instead of the car cutting throttle input or braking the inside wheel to save a spin they'd be required to do it themselves. Some drivers who overstep the boundaries of VDC don't seem to know what they did wrong in particular.
You have safety systems that are requiring less skill on the driver's behalf allowing the car to approach greater limits with ease. And then you have drivers who now don't have the skillset required to bring the car back from beyond that edge because they've never been anywhere near it as the car has prevented that from happening for the most part.
To play devil's advocate regarding what i've written i'm certainly sure the opposite has happened where VDC would have saved the driver's *** in an older car and prevented an accident had it been equipped with such a system.
08-24-2015, 02:43 PM
#15
Race Car
Many good points here gents.
I'm impressed that everyone figured out that the talk of lowering the speed limits was just a guise to talk about all the many other things to make our sport safer.
The last 2 students I had both drove brand new cars that were the at the top of the go fast option list. Neither myself or the student could feel any of the nannies kicking in, but we knew they were cause these guys weren't that good to be going that fast. (and they were flying)
My point is the instructor has to run the show and crash safety has to be part of it. I explained to both of them that I understand they want to drive fast, but I expect big early braking before the corner or you will have a pissed of instructor.
Let's no forget though this is still a very dangerous sport.
I'm impressed that everyone figured out that the talk of lowering the speed limits was just a guise to talk about all the many other things to make our sport safer.
The last 2 students I had both drove brand new cars that were the at the top of the go fast option list. Neither myself or the student could feel any of the nannies kicking in, but we knew they were cause these guys weren't that good to be going that fast. (and they were flying)
My point is the instructor has to run the show and crash safety has to be part of it. I explained to both of them that I understand they want to drive fast, but I expect big early braking before the corner or you will have a pissed of instructor.
Let's no forget though this is still a very dangerous sport.