Toronto Motorsports Park vs. Mosport
07-19-2011, 03:04 PM
#16
Race Car
So I'm doing it a$$ backwards then 
Its was really dumb of me of catching the last 10 minutes of instructions as I was late. Then just jumped in and followed the other Ferrari cars.
I wasnt terrified at Mosport on the first lap. I was grinning ear to ear. Got the hang of it by 3rd lap...following other experienced drivers and following their lines.
Yeah mostly 3rd and 4th except for Moss Hairpin which I was down to 2nd so that before exit I had lots of torque to flip to 3rd and 4th for the back straight way.
By 3rd lap I was dying to pass some of the fcars but held back. I did not pass at all. Mind you I think the group was slow as they were only going 160-180 in the back straight.
I think you Pcars normally hit 180-230 on the back straight at Mosport.
Mosport is fast and does have fast blind turns. It really only has one slow turn which is the the Moss hairpin. Mosport has lots of room and the track is wide and has lots of run off.
Based on the track of Cayuga "online" it has many more tight turns I think.
I am scared of that wall in Cayuga as that part of the track seems really narrow. I would hate to see my car wrecked because the wife or myself did not negociate that turn into the straight correctly.
I did see that Youtube video with that Subaru or honda flip on the hay bail.
Cayuga is good then so that the wife and myself can get some basic instructions.
Its was really dumb of me of catching the last 10 minutes of instructions as I was late. Then just jumped in and followed the other Ferrari cars.
I wasnt terrified at Mosport on the first lap. I was grinning ear to ear. Got the hang of it by 3rd lap...following other experienced drivers and following their lines.
Yeah mostly 3rd and 4th except for Moss Hairpin which I was down to 2nd so that before exit I had lots of torque to flip to 3rd and 4th for the back straight way.
By 3rd lap I was dying to pass some of the fcars but held back. I did not pass at all. Mind you I think the group was slow as they were only going 160-180 in the back straight.
I think you Pcars normally hit 180-230 on the back straight at Mosport.
Mosport is fast and does have fast blind turns. It really only has one slow turn which is the the Moss hairpin. Mosport has lots of room and the track is wide and has lots of run off.
Based on the track of Cayuga "online" it has many more tight turns I think.
I am scared of that wall in Cayuga as that part of the track seems really narrow. I would hate to see my car wrecked because the wife or myself did not negociate that turn into the straight correctly.
I did see that Youtube video with that Subaru or honda flip on the hay bail.
Cayuga is good then so that the wife and myself can get some basic instructions.
07-19-2011, 03:50 PM
#17
Nordschleife Master
To follow with the golf analogy, Mosport is the full course whereas Cayuga is like the driving range. They complement each other well.
Treat Mosport with respect. Do YOUR drive and don't worry about the others... well please do watch your rear view mirrors
A bit cliché, but "you don't know what you don't know".
Go to Cayuga to hone your skills, preferably if it's raining. You can try "stuff" there that you certainly can't at Mosport. You can test the limit. It's an invaluable resource.
Have fun, and be safe.
Francois
07-19-2011, 05:11 PM
#18
Race Car
I don't agree, if it's a track like TMP. Mosport, yes, I would never drive, or even ride as a passenger, without a helmet there. But at a track like TMP, I prefer to drive without. I find I can concentrate better, both because of improved visibility and less fatigue/heat.
07-19-2011, 07:08 PM
#19
Drifting
At a track like TMP, you can get away with driver error or mechanical failure. At Mosport, you buy a lottery if you get away with either of those two. Last June, I had a coolant fitting blow out of my car. I came within 6ft of the concrete wall. Unfortunately, two cars behind me spun on my coolant, one hitting the tire wall outside turn 8.
We can control ourselves, but we can't control mechanical failures. A few weeks back, a new GT3 RS had a similar mechanical failure, which caused a novice in a very high priced car (intentionally left out the make/model) following behind to hit the wall; I understand his car was destroyed.
Think carefully before going to a track like Mosport or Watkins Glen. I always felt like I could drive at 80% and stay within the margin of safety; heck, I even took Zookie's Mom out for several laps in the 1:38-1:39 range and felt comfortable enough to chat with her the entire time. I now look back and feel foolish for taking someone's Mom in the car without a roll cage and Hans devices, given the potential accident we could have had.
A fun day at Mosport:
A not so fun day at Mosport, where I could have had to write a $100k cheque:
Just my 2 cent's worth.
We can control ourselves, but we can't control mechanical failures. A few weeks back, a new GT3 RS had a similar mechanical failure, which caused a novice in a very high priced car (intentionally left out the make/model) following behind to hit the wall; I understand his car was destroyed.
Think carefully before going to a track like Mosport or Watkins Glen. I always felt like I could drive at 80% and stay within the margin of safety; heck, I even took Zookie's Mom out for several laps in the 1:38-1:39 range and felt comfortable enough to chat with her the entire time. I now look back and feel foolish for taking someone's Mom in the car without a roll cage and Hans devices, given the potential accident we could have had.
A fun day at Mosport:
A not so fun day at Mosport, where I could have had to write a $100k cheque:
Just my 2 cent's worth.
07-20-2011, 10:49 AM
#22
Drifting
We have had more Lambo's and Ferrari's end up backing into the drivers right wall by pit out here then any other corner combined.
Most people try to carry way more speed through corners at Mosport which about 3/4 of the way through they figure out too late was a bad idea. Early apex's also can end up in the fence. I about evacuated by bowels at corner 4 once when I turned in too early and then drifted out wide before the compression onto a lot of grey crap going down the hill - sideways with my left elbow pointed at the right hand mirror... Was I ever slow the next lap... (Good that there WAS a next lap!)
We find the front wheel drive cars go surffing off at the first apex of 2 and down straight into the tires at 2A and highpower rear wheel drivers tend to forget that there is a second apex at the bottom of 2A and end up oversteering drivers left into unprotected cement walls between 2A and cor 3. Those are really bad ones. Flat bed mode.
Corner 5B had a weird one this year - the picture is around here somewhere of a GT3RS doing a lazy spin off the exit and sliding a$$ backwards along the drivers right wall on the exit. My friend Pat was at cor 5 that day and called in a lazy spin and soft contact with the wall but the pictures tell a different story.
Exit of cor 9 onto the tunnel before 10 is another problem area. There was a 997 that was a write off here one year with a PCA instructor driving and owner in passenger seat. Cement walls both sides - not a good spot to loop it.
We get a lot of roll overs that many people don't hear about on lapping days. People tend to not want a lot of people to know about these things. Robin (Bobs towing) makes a few bucks flat bedding quite a few cars home that get pushed into peoples garages...
Do TMP or SMP for your first lapping day. Piper Cub before Viper (F16).
07-20-2011, 11:26 AM
#23
Nordschleife Master
As always Torontoworker 
The 9, 10 tunnel as you call it certainly is tricky. On the proper line, it's fine and you can add some throttle. Get it wrong however, and there are a few "strategically-placed" bumps that can upset the car and that will bite you if you are not 100% on the ball. Yet, other than all the concrete, it looks quite tame. Beware.
S Goodbody, chief instructor for the UCR, has mentionned a few times at the driver's meetings this year (especially on wet days): Experienced drivers/racers tend to lose it on corner entry; less experienced drivers on corner exit.
You lose it on entry when you are going for that extra 10th, and the grip just gives.
You lose it on exit when power is applied too abruptly or inappropriately ---> inexperience, as this is entirely in the driver's control.
The 9, 10 tunnel as you call it certainly is tricky. On the proper line, it's fine and you can add some throttle. Get it wrong however, and there are a few "strategically-placed" bumps that can upset the car and that will bite you if you are not 100% on the ball. Yet, other than all the concrete, it looks quite tame. Beware.
S Goodbody, chief instructor for the UCR, has mentionned a few times at the driver's meetings this year (especially on wet days): Experienced drivers/racers tend to lose it on corner entry; less experienced drivers on corner exit.
You lose it on entry when you are going for that extra 10th, and the grip just gives.
You lose it on exit when power is applied too abruptly or inappropriately ---> inexperience, as this is entirely in the driver's control.
07-20-2011, 11:32 AM
#25
fc-racer- You own the red 997 GT3 correct? I remember seeing that vid of the coolant on youtube. A few buddies with Porsches were at the day. Thank god you didn't hit the wall.
07-20-2011, 11:35 AM
#26
I don't agree, if it's a track like TMP. Mosport, yes, I would never drive, or even ride as a passenger, without a helmet there. But at a track like TMP, I prefer to drive without. I find I can concentrate better, both because of improved visibility and less fatigue/heat.
I've been on countless track days at TMP in the advanced groups when all of a sudden, they let guys from the drag strip or the beginner group out. Talk about dangerous! These guys don't know the lines, fast in straights then spin out in corners.
I've driven that track only once without a helmet and won't ever again (that was when I first started tracking years ago).
07-20-2011, 01:54 PM
#27
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Toronto, Canada, Outside Turn 2 Mosport
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heed this warning
Yeah, me too.
There are a couple things you said that sound a bit concerning. Mosport has VERY little run-off room in most places, compared to Cayuga. You have to consider the speeds you're carrying. With the last turn at cayuga, with the wall right there, I'm in 2nd gear, around 5000 rpm, so maybe I'm going 75-80 km/h, I don't know. It's about the same speed I exit 5b at at Mosport (Moss Corner). I do take it easy on the last corner of TMP - if I'm going to lose time on a lap, it's there. Compared to, say, the left-turn after the chicane, where I'm going as fast as I possible can after downshifting to 2nd.
The average intermediate driver will be going around 200-230 km/h at the end of the straight at Mosport, depending on what kind of car they're driving. In a 6th-gen Z06 I'm going about 225-230. In my 72 911, I'm going about 175. The run-off room at the end of the straight is NOT that big, at speeds over 200 km/h - that's why they paved it recently, so that you can get more grip if you've lost control. The front straight at Mosport has NO runoff room whatsoever, and I've seen countless cars wrecked there because they took 10 too fast and lost control.
The track may be wide, but don't let that fool you. When us non-pro drivers are out there in our street cars and doing a good hot lap (i.e. driving the car at 85-90% of its capabilities), the room outside of the perfect line is very small. For example, cresting 4 into the downhill, you can carry a lot of speed, but if you get too far off-line you're going to find the car unbalanced very quickly. Combine that with the debris that's always over to the right, and you're going to be getting very familiar with the trees, and it's going to hurt more than your wallet.
Really, you have to be very respectful of Mosport. It can and will bite. Ask me how I know. Luckily that only cost me $2k in body work.
There are a couple things you said that sound a bit concerning. Mosport has VERY little run-off room in most places, compared to Cayuga. You have to consider the speeds you're carrying. With the last turn at cayuga, with the wall right there, I'm in 2nd gear, around 5000 rpm, so maybe I'm going 75-80 km/h, I don't know. It's about the same speed I exit 5b at at Mosport (Moss Corner). I do take it easy on the last corner of TMP - if I'm going to lose time on a lap, it's there. Compared to, say, the left-turn after the chicane, where I'm going as fast as I possible can after downshifting to 2nd.
The average intermediate driver will be going around 200-230 km/h at the end of the straight at Mosport, depending on what kind of car they're driving. In a 6th-gen Z06 I'm going about 225-230. In my 72 911, I'm going about 175. The run-off room at the end of the straight is NOT that big, at speeds over 200 km/h - that's why they paved it recently, so that you can get more grip if you've lost control. The front straight at Mosport has NO runoff room whatsoever, and I've seen countless cars wrecked there because they took 10 too fast and lost control.
The track may be wide, but don't let that fool you. When us non-pro drivers are out there in our street cars and doing a good hot lap (i.e. driving the car at 85-90% of its capabilities), the room outside of the perfect line is very small. For example, cresting 4 into the downhill, you can carry a lot of speed, but if you get too far off-line you're going to find the car unbalanced very quickly. Combine that with the debris that's always over to the right, and you're going to be getting very familiar with the trees, and it's going to hurt more than your wallet.
Really, you have to be very respectful of Mosport. It can and will bite. Ask me how I know. Luckily that only cost me $2k in body work.
07-20-2011, 01:55 PM
#28
Race Car
Or the drag guys just wander over and head out, because the marshal is absent or not paying attention! I remember a Mustang or something similar just all over the road course - no idea of how to approach a turn, just driving like an idiot. We all pulled off and pointed him out to the marshal, who tried to flag him down, but of course the guy didn't know what the flags meant.
07-20-2011, 03:24 PM
#29
Drifting
Jason, the data system is an AIM EVO 4; it taps into the car's CAN BUS network (two wires) and pulls more data than I know what to do with (TPS, Brake switch, individual wheels speeds, temps, etc.). The unit also has a three axis accelerometer, as well as GPS. I posted a while back with images of Mosport taken from the unit overlaid on Google Maps.
The video setup is a simple Taiwanese AIPTEK GVS camera with a QC505 lens. I'm using a suction mount from Filmtools.com. I then take the data and overlay it using Trackvision software. It sounds complicated, but it's actually quite easy. When I get a cage installed, it should make the video much smoother and easier to manage. Currently, I run the video through my Mac's iMovie software and use the de-jutter filter, which takes quite some time!
The only downside to this system is that it tells the truth, and I'm not as fast as I wish I was You would be shocked at how many times people that I blow by on the track come after, declare their best lap time, and then ask what my data system shows. When I tell them my best lap is 4-5 seconds slower than their "best" lap, they walk away in disbelief, never to return 
This happens most often at Mosport, where people have an unrealistic view of their lap times; this rarely happens at Calabogie, Shannonville or TMP; there's something about Mospost that brings out the inner child in us...
Rev, you are correct, I was the one with the red GT3 at the Kensai track day.
The video setup is a simple Taiwanese AIPTEK GVS camera with a QC505 lens. I'm using a suction mount from Filmtools.com. I then take the data and overlay it using Trackvision software. It sounds complicated, but it's actually quite easy. When I get a cage installed, it should make the video much smoother and easier to manage. Currently, I run the video through my Mac's iMovie software and use the de-jutter filter, which takes quite some time!
The only downside to this system is that it tells the truth, and I'm not as fast as I wish I was
You would be shocked at how many times people that I blow by on the track come after, declare their best lap time, and then ask what my data system shows. When I tell them my best lap is 4-5 seconds slower than their "best" lap, they walk away in disbelief, never to return This happens most often at Mosport, where people have an unrealistic view of their lap times; this rarely happens at Calabogie, Shannonville or TMP; there's something about Mospost that brings out the inner child in us...Rev, you are correct, I was the one with the red GT3 at the Kensai track day.
07-20-2011, 05:31 PM
#30
Or the drag guys just wander over and head out, because the marshal is absent or not paying attention! I remember a Mustang or something similar just all over the road course - no idea of how to approach a turn, just driving like an idiot. We all pulled off and pointed him out to the marshal, who tried to flag him down, but of course the guy didn't know what the flags meant.
I bet it was the exact mustang. There's was a guy multiple track days in a stang that kept coming out and disrupting. I was on a hot lap with my S2000 and on the last turn ran me right off the track.
I had it all on video (Go Pro). Luckily the marshals kicked him out because I was about to go Rampage on him
