Michael Moore on Larry King a few days ago was just saying
how "horrendous" the vehicles made by the big 3 are.

My thoughts exactly bail out or not.
Starting with the shape, why don't they get inspired by air-dynamic shapes,
like Lambos or Porsches, instead of cubes and walls fighting wind (no pun intended)

Such great new technology popping out all over the world every second,
and these dinosaur (no pun on extinction) boxes are the best they come up with?

 

It's a private industry!!! Screw them if they can't run a business properly. How many other private businesses have gone under in the past with no bailout? Let them go under and another company will fill the void and do a better job.

Have you guys looked at your hydro bill lately? When are we going to stop paying the Debt retirement charge? friggin scam....

I'm personally sick of paying for others screw ups. If I don't budget my household properly I'm on the street... period, nobody is paying my bills to keep afloat.

 

Let them go under. People are still going to buy cars, they will just buy all hondas now. Honda will have to increase production and hire new staff. Parts manufacturers will now have to make honda parts and not GM.

Just wait until the Chinese cars hit the market.

 

When I hear the senators talking about it in the US, many of them are saying what we are all saying here. Even Obama, when talking about the bailout, does not talk about the cars. He talks about saving American jobs. And now Canada is considering a $3.xB bailout.

My guess is that the goverments are looking at the cost of supporting that many unemployed people vs. spending that same money and hoping/praying they can get their sh*t together and actually transform. My best guess is that GM and Chrysler need to get some new visionery CEO's in place because the current bozo's have not come up with anything useful in the way of real plans yet.

It would be totally cool one day if I could actually say I am going to get that GM instead of the Mercedes or BMW because it looked cooler, was more reliable, had a better engine, was faster, etc.

GM seems to be on the right track with the Cadillac line. Some of the new sedans are very cool looking and superfast. Problem is that it's big inefficient engine superfast, not technological breakthrough superfast. Interesting days ahead.

 

They need someone like the Nissan fellow who came in and shook things up.

 

Carlos Ghosn is not interested in acquiring or merging with either GM or Chrysler anymore, but he does support the idea of the bailout somewhat.

 

Here in beautiful BC we just suffered thru 5 years of slow downs and free trade issues in our forest industry. And now with the US home sector at a complete shut down our forest sector (which I've been told employs more than the auto sector) is completely decimated.

Where are the outcries of bailouts for our forest companies. We've received a grand total of nothing from the Feds.

I heard our politicans tell us that they cannot do anything about the US not buying our products ... yep nothing that they can do at all.

So how is the auto industry any different ... other than it is mainly located in Ontario.

It is obvious that nobody in their right mind wants to buy any cars from the Big Three.

I bought a Chrysler minivan years ago. Had nothing but problems and ended up selling it for 25% of the original cost after two years. Bought a Honda minivan ... no issues at all for four years ... made in the US.

Stupid me traded the Honda for a Ford Expedition. Had recurring tranny and electrical problems for two years. My wife refused to allow us to take the family down to the US with it on vacation as she feared we would not make it back. Traded it in for an Infiniti QX56. No issues for two years now. The QX is built in the US ... so there's no excuse as to why the Big Three can't do the same. It seems to be the big difference is the union.

Why the hell would I try my luck a third time with the Big Three???? On average I buy a new car every two to three years. I doubt that I will ever buy another Big Three car again.

Currently I have only Japanese and German cars ... Infiniti FX45, Infiniti QX56, Porsche 964, Audi A3, and BMW 335i cab. Fantastic cars all of them.

This forum is obviously slanted towards non Big Three car owners but how many of your friends and family feel the same way.

Let them die a quick death. Those are my tax dollars that they will get flushed down the toilet.

 

Funny you should bring this point up... I recently brought this same point up with one of my former High School buddies who currently working as a aerodynamic designer for GM in Michigan... his response was "american buyers want roomy vehicles to carry their families... do you know how hard it is to make a brick aero effiecient and appealing". He went on to say that GM does make some vechicles that have superior aerodynamics to the German or Jananese competition just because it looks aero efficient doesn't mean it is.

 

a caravan with venturi tunnels and flat undertray would be pretty funny

 

I am a manager for a Ford dealer and of course these discussions are of interest to all of us in the business but one very frustrating thing we deal with every day is all of the misconseptions and lack of truth reported by the daily press. Yes, there have been mistakes made by the domestic manufacturers but most of those have been corrected or are on their way to change. I thought I would insert a letter a Pennsylvania dealer wrote, as he says very well what we have been trying to get across to Joe Public. I hope you are able to read this with an open mind and I doubt most of you know this.
Thanks for taking the time to read this.

Cheers.

Bob

The letter;

As I watch the coverage of the fate of the U.S. auto industry, one alarming and frustrating fact hits me right between the eyes. The fate of our nation's economic survival is in the hands of some congressmen who are completely out of touch and act without knowledge of an industry that affects almost every person in our nation. The same lack of knowledge is shared with many journalists whom are irresponsible when influencing the opinion of millions of viewers.

Sen. Richard Shelby of Alabama has doomed the industry, calling it a dinosaur. No Mr. Shelby, you are the dinosaur, with ideas stuck in the '70s, '80s and '90s. You and the uninformed journalist and senators that hold onto myths that are not relevant in today's world.



When you say that the Big Three build vehicles nobody wants to buy, you must have overlooked that GM outsold Toyota by about 1.2 million vehicles in the U.S. and Ford outsold Honda by 850,000 and Nissan by 1.2 million in the U.S. GM was the world's No. 1 automaker beating Toyota by 3,000 units.

When you claim inferior quality comes from the Big Three, did you realize that Chevy makes the Malibu and Ford makes the Fusion that were both rated over the Camry and Accord by J.D. Power independent survey on initial quality? Did you bother to read the Consumer Report that rated Ford on par with good Japanese automakers.



Did you realize Big Three's gas guzzlers include the 33 mpg Malibu that beats the Accord. And for '09 Ford introduces the Hybrid Fusion whose 39 mpg is the best midsize, beating the Camry Hybrid. Ford's Focus beats the Corolla and Chevy's Cobalt beats the Civic.



When you ask how many times are we going to bail them out you must be referring to 1980. The only Big Three bailout was Chrysler, who paid back $1 billion, plus interest. GM and Ford have never received government aid.



When you criticize the Big Three for building so many pickups, surely you've noticed the attempts Toyota and Nissan have made spending billions to try to get a piece of that pie. Perhaps it bothers you that for 31 straight years Ford's F-Series has been the best selling vehicle. Ford and GM have dominated this market and when you see the new '09 F-150 you'll agree this won't change soon.



Did you realize that both GM and Ford offer more hybrid models than Nissan or Honda. Between 2005 and 2007, Ford alone has invested more than $22 billion in research and development of technologies such as Eco Boost, flex fuel, clean diesel, hybrids, plug in hybrids and hydrogen cars.

It's 2008 and the quality of the vehicles coming out of Detroit are once again the best in the world.



Perhaps Sen. Shelby isn't really that blind. Maybe he realizes the quality shift to American. Maybe it's the fact that his state of Alabama has given so much to land factories from Honda, Hyundai and Mercedes Benz that he is more concerned about their continued growth than he is about the people of our country. Sen. Shelby's disdain for "government subsidies" is very hypocritical. In the early '90s he was the driving force behind a $253 million incentive package to Mercedes. Plus, Alabama agreed to purchase 2,500 vehicles from Mercedes. While the bridge loan the Big Three is requesting will be paid back, Alabama 's $180,000-plus per job was pure incentive. Sen. Shelby, not only are you out of touch, you are a self-serving hypocrite, who is prepared to ruin our nation because of lack of knowledge and lack of due diligence in making your opinions and decisions.



After 9/11, the Detroit Three and Harley Davidson gave $40 million-plus emergency vehicles to the recovery efforts. What was given to the 9/11 relief effort by the Asian and European Auto Manufactures? $0 Nada. Zip!



We live in a world of free trade, world economy and we have not been able to produce products as cost efficiently. While the governments of other auto producing nations subsidize their automakers, our government may be ready to force its demise. While our automakers have paid union wages, benefits and legacy debt, our Asian competitors employ cheap labor. We are at an extreme disadvantage in production cost. Although many UAW concessions begin in 2010, many lawmakers think it's not enough.



Some point the blame to corporate management. I would like to speak of Ford Motor Co. The company has streamlined by reducing our workforce by 51,000 since 2005, closing 17 plants and cutting expenses. Product and future product is excellent and the company is focused on one Ford. This is a company poised for success. Ford product quality and corporate management have improved light years since the nightmare of Jacques Nasser. Thank you Alan Mulally and the best auto company management team in the business.



The financial collapse caused by the secondary mortgage fiasco and the greed of Wall Street has led to a $700 billion bailout of the industry that created the problem. AIG spent nearly $1 million on three company excursions to lavish resorts and hunting destinations. Paulson is saying no to $250 billion foreclosure relief and the whole thing is a mess. So when the Big Three ask for 4 percent of that of the $700 billion, $25 billion to save the country's largest industry, there is obviously oppositions. But does it make sense to reward the culprits of the problem with $700 billion unconditionally, and ignore the victims?



As a Ford dealer, I feel our portion of the $25 billion will never be touched and is not necessary. Ford currently has $29 billion of liquidity. However, the effect of a bankruptcy by GM will hurt the suppliers we all do business with. A Chapter 11 bankruptcy by any manufacture would cost retirees their health care and retirements. Chances are GM would recover from Chapter 11 with a better business plan with much less expense. So who foots the bill if GM or all three go Chapter 11? All that extra health care, unemployment, loss of tax base and some forgiven debt goes back to the taxpayer, us. With no chance of repayment, this would be much worse than a loan with the intent of repayment.



So while it is debatable whether a loan or Chapter 11 is better for the Big Three, a $25 billion loan is definitely better for the taxpayers and the economy of our country.



So I'll end where I began on the quality of the products of Detroit . Before you, Mr. or Ms. Journalist continue to misinform the American public and turn them against one of the great industries that helped build this nation, I must ask you one question. Before you, Mr. or Madam Congressman vote to end health care and retirement benefits for 1 million retirees, eliminate 2.5 million of our nation's jobs, lose the technology that will lead us in the future and create an economic disaster including hundreds of billions of tax dollars lost, I ask this question not in the rhetorical sense. I ask it in the sincere, literal way.



Can you tell me, have you driven a Ford lately?

Jim Jackson

 

i have a 1995 Audi , looks like the day it was bought brand new .. it has over 300,000km on it
I have a 2001 Ford Tarus .. 130,000km on it ... and it is rusting right into the ground .. think I will ever buy another Ford product ? THAT is where the big 3 are missing the mark ... you can talk all you want. It is what you show that makes the difference ...

 

Good post Hot oil, My Ranger Rover was a great vechical though it did suffer a few problems though not nearly as many as my Cayenne.

 

To be perfectly honest, this litter scares me even more. If they are outselling these other manufacturers, and obviously not putting in the same amount of R&D dollars as the others, why are they going bankrupt (well GM and Chrysler)?