Rally Guy

I have to agree. The one time I was stopped in the P-car - the guy was totally cold and mean and didn't reduce the ticket one bit. No dicussion, no comments, just "here's your ticket".

I was stopped in the rally car (Celica GT4) a year later - reduced from 75 in a 50 to 55 in a 50! Bizarre. It's as if - "That looks like an expensive car - you can afford the full ticket".

But - tickets are a tax grab anyway - has NOTHING to do with safety - it's just tax revenue without any real chance of a tax revolt.

An old rallying buddy had a great idea, everyone needs to drive AT THE SPEED LIMIT for a month or so. Ticket revenue would plummet and the cops would have to go after REAL safety issues, like liance changes w/o signalling, tailgating, merging too slowly onto the hiway, etc.

RK

MY86Carrera

I was sitting here wondering if I should post or not. Well as you see I have. I'll give a breif history of myself. I have been with the Upper Canada Region of the PCA for about 8 years, and have been through the advanced driving program and do as many track days as I can get in. I have also been a member of the OPP for just over 6 years.

I would like to comment on a few things ....

tickets reduced at roadside - true, happy to do it if I can....

cops can't be bothered to show for court - false !! It is part of the job and we MUST show. I was excused a couple of times - birth of daughter and when I injured my back. We get in big poop if we don't show - docked pay and or worse. I can tell you that NO speeding trial is worth that to me.If you wish to fight the ticket use some kind of service, it is your best bet...Cops are in court all the time and show prepared....most people are not. Thinking cops show unprepared or will lie is crazy, remember it is a 30 yr job and the JP's don't change often. You only have to be there once, the cop will be there 100's

cop raise speed on a ticket (lie) -false - I can tell you my job pays well and to loose it for something like is crazy. If you feel you were a victim ( you feel were not speeding, someone elses speed clocked/ great check box three and request a trial) burden of proof is on you. I can tell you all that we carry notebooks for a reason. After traffic ticket issued, info is written down... time, date and place in question, light conditions, road conditions, vehicles in area etc, etc...

50 zones are 50 for a reason....if you feel it is a tax grab then speak with the people who work and/ or live in that area....I can tell I have numerous times. --- dispacth " Complainant requests to speak with officers regarding speeding vehicles in area..etc, etc. "

Cops should target REAL problems...lane changes, tailgating, driving slow in left lane . We do as well and theose people say target the real problem "speeding". I invite anyone to attend at their local police detachment and see about going for a ride along..Things are a lot different from that view out the windshield. Everyone seems to remember the DE classes from highschool :-)

And my oponion on speed doesn't kill....that is false - I will only say as a Scenes of Crime officer, and a former career in Pathology I have seen to many speed related deaths. Speed limits are there for the weakest link. No one would let a novice run with advanced drivers or greens to run with the reds - right -.

thanks,

Brad

Rally Guy

Thanks for the insight Brad - this is very cool to hear from the "other side".

I think you've called us out on some broad generalizations - ones that I'm comfortable making in a "rant" on a board where I guess I'd never thought of a dissenting voice chiming in.

I think the actual traffic officers prolly have a tough job of it - since there are tons of totally idiot drivers out there, and frankly - I'm thrilled you're out there stopping the idiots and catching the DUI bastards - and helping people all the time. I don't mean to *** kiss - but "thanks" for those efforts. I think we all here appreciate it.

However, I'll stand by my assertation that MANY speed limits are set artificailly low. Traffic planning methodology dictates that to set a limit for a given stretch of road, you measure the speed of traffic on a that stretch for awhile (without a limit being displayed), and set the limit at the 80th percentile. Those above and below are the exceptions to the rule and are dangerous. This adds to my other point of clarification - speed doesn't kill - speed discrepency kills. (I will absolutly concede that the odds of dying in a 220km/h crash are higher on ave than in a 120km/hr crash, can't fight physics.) BUT, if EVERYONE is going 120km/hr - we're okay. Same at 140. When you have MOST people (80th percentile) going 130 (400 Northbound for example) and then one idiot thinks it's his right to go 85 in the left lane - you start to have real problems. Same thing if you have someone who thinks he can go 200.

Regrettably - Ontario (prolly all of Canada) don't set limits based on average driver behavior, otherwise - the 400 series would be 130 or so (on a CLEAR DAY) and many roads would be 70 and 80, instead of 50. Instead - despite dramatic advances in auto technology, power, handling and safety - we're still using 1930's limits. This is NOT the officers fault - it's the Ministry's. Agreed. But it's STILL a fault. The Gov knows this - and also knows that there's a TON of money to made by "enforcing" these artifically low limits.

Now - as for the weakest, agreed - there are HORRIBLE drivers out there. But as an accomplished driver - with a bevy of safe, high-performance cars - I cannot go faster that 100km on a clear, dry, lightly traveled road because of lousy adminstration, desire to rake in the dollars, lousy testing, limit setting policy and driver ed requirements. So, officers running a stationary trap over a hill on a lightly travelled road on a clar day - maybe give the sports car guys a break?

RK

pongobaz

Thanks Brad for your insight. But I did have 2 tickets dismissed in the past when the officers failed to show up in court: once in Quebec and the other time in Ontario. Mind you these were from local police departments and not from Provincial forces.

As far as speeding is concerned, speeding does kill when it is done on a road not intended for higher speeds. i.e.: street racing, weaving in and out of traffic, etc... But I agree with Rally Guy that speed limits are set artificially high. Why is it that the 400 series highways are limited to 100 km/h when similar highways in Alberta, BC and the Maritimes are set at 110 km/h? Are drivers in those provinces better trained? What about Europe? I feel much safer driving above 130 km/h in Europe AND at unlimited speeds in Germany than here. Why? because travelling at such high speeds requires your undivided attention and therefore you see much fewer people (if any!) talking on cellphones, eating, drinking or reading the newspaper while driving than here. In Europe where the speed is regulated, you'd better respect it as the fines are quite punitive with temporary licence suspensions for the smallest infractions (even for the first infraction!) being quite common. It seems thoat over there the message is more about safety and less about revenue generating.

crooster

I live very close to there and drive that section of road nearly every day. I know that the cops are often out with radar so I tend to stick to the limit or just over when passing thru. You would not believe how many times I have been tailgated, or had people fuming behind me but what can you do?

JimV8

I guess you'd want your driveway to intersect on a major roadway to appreciate how fast fast is. Now having said that I wonder who actually sets the posted limits for any particular roadway. IMO the problem ultimately is not the police, nor the posted limit, rather it has more to do with the equipment people are driving and the skill level of folks driving the vehicle. I drive alot and everyday I see really stupid things done by probably otherwise intelligent people.

MY86Carrera

All I can say is the two times I was excused from court all the traffic charges I had on that day would have been withdrawn. Good luck day for the ticketed :-)

I don't wish to comment on the set speed limits here....but we as Canadians can't compare Europe, US to the 401. Different from the hand crank days I think. I feel it was a different mind set from the begining.

I agree -speed discrepency, cell phones, breakfast (bowl of cereal, yes I've seen that) are much bigger problems.

rally guy - no one says you can't go faster than 100 kph on a clear day. Just don't get caught :-)

Brad

Rally Guy

Thanks for the offer - but my insurance company made me install a GPS system in all my cars that has local speed limit info for every stretch of road included. This is integrated to a speed governor and the ABS system - so I am mechanically prevented from exceeding the speed limit on any public hiway on North America. ; )

But man, do I have fun in underground parking lots!

RK

theiceman

a ticket is a ticket , points or no points means squat until you get into a major. Brokers are going away and insurance companies are hooked direct to the internet and pull your liscence instantly. On your renewal you will see the convictions as minor or major. along with the approprite surcharge. You can get it reduced yourself without a service..and most services will just get it reduced for you and not try to get it removed as mentioned earlier .. a reduction is a win and they don't have to invest more time.
Either do it yourself and get it reduced at the "first attendance" or get someone who will try and get it thrown out.

PS I live in Cambridge and that spot down by the gas station just south of town is brutal . It is indeed a cash grab ( sorry Brad ) there is no pedestrian traffic anywhere near. I do however live in a residential area with a school on the street and have traffic whip by my house at 80 -90 kph so I understand his point.
anyway back to the point. I think you should get the guys other people have had success with getting the ticket thrown out.

Good luck ..

jumper5836

I think that speed/trafic cammeras should be used in spots. These being of not hidden but posted so people actually do have to slow down on residential streets. I live on a road that is 50km hour and 2 lanes on each side. Not even the Police go the speed limit, everyone does 80km to 90km.

Yet on the highway I think we are wasting are time having speed limits set so low. We are actually causing more accidents because 85% of people go over the speed limit and then the 15% of people who don't slow things down and drive in the middle lane and even the fast lane which causes the faster trafic to have to make lane changes to go around them.
One time on the highway I avoided a major pile up. Lots of cars breaking like there was a major accident. Turns out, that there was a police car up ahead looking for speeders, man almost caused an freaking accident.

Lets face it. It is all about cash. The police shouldn't be used for this petty crap. They only one who benifits from all of this is the insurance companies.

As for the saying speed kills, slow down.
F. That
Its not speed that kills, it's slowing down to fast that kills.

Imo000

Yup, I know this section of Hwy # 24 too. Last time I went to traffic court, one of the offences were on this exact section of 24. The problem was that the officer made a mistake on the ticket (wrong township) and they had to dismiss the charges. It was interesting that the officer found this out and told her lawyer just before their case started. They voluntarily decided to drop the charges before the case even started. I suggest you find out exactly where the officer was and make sure they were in the correct township.

Another heavily enforced location in Cambridge is Can-Amera Parkway. The road there is built as a limited access arterial (almost can classify as an undivided highway and they posted speed limit is a ridiculous 60km/h). It has a 4 lane cross section and full width paved shoulders, a grassy boulevard with set back sidewalks/bike paths. I got nabbed there just before Christmas.

Rally Guy

There are probably thousands of the anecdotal "ridiculous" speed limit spots. The volume of evidence is just too massive to suggest that ticketing "speeders" is a safety issue. It's a tax issue MOST of the time.

I'll again agree with Brad that there are idiots and that some areas DO see speeds that are too high (80 by a school is crazy) - but not necessarily at 11pm.

There's always the agrument - if you weren't going that fast - you'd have missed that car, pedestian etc. True. But if the same car was going 5km/hr FASTER - it would have missed the collision too.

Sounds like this Cambridge spot is just another $$$ sinkhole.

The other issue that irks me is that I've never seen the net safety analysis of operating any given road-side speed trap.

You pull over maybe 1 in 250 speeding cars on a heavily travelled section at rush hour? What's the incremental increase in the likihood of an upstream accident as people gawk and stare, slam on the brakes at the sudden slowing, etc. Never mind the danger the cop and the stopped car are in at the side of the road. All this - to stop 1 in 100's of cars.

I'm not even sure it makes ANY safety sense at all.

Than lastly - in case you think that at least that one driver is now slower as they curse and fear thier insurance hike - nope - you get into the same "speed delta" issue I raised before and that many experts have cited as the true cause of most accidents on highways.

Lastly - it can make things MUCH more dangerous for that "now compliant" driver.

I'm one of those and I cringe EVERY DAY as I merge into the rigtht-most lane crossing the Don River on Eastern Ave, to take the DVP North On ramp.

Cops love to sit just over the crest on the bullnose and catch people exceeding the 50(!) kms limit on this stretch (no intersections etc). I am wary that the cops will be there - so I tow the line at 50. trouble is - there's a steady stream of 70-80 km/hr traffic coming off Adelaide in the lane I need to merge into. I have to either speed up (break law), almost stop (mighty dangerous) or not take the exit (sending me through miles of MUCH MORE DANGEROUS residential streets (statisically) just to stay "legal".

http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&hl=en...,0.023625&om=1


Now, how is THAT safer???

RK

RK

rebe1

Hope that doesn't make it seem like we want speeding cameras put back in

pongobaz

Yeah it's not the speed, it's the SUDDEN stop!

Rally Guy

Nah - speed cameras are just the ultimate expression of "tax grab". It's automated and doesn't tie a punishment directly to the "crime". You just get a "bill" in the mail. It' like a tax for traveling at the prevailing speed. Just as dumb.

Frankly - if it weren't for the 1000's extra in insurance - I wouldn't mind paying 100's in speeding tickets. It's the three years of follow on cost that really kills. Added of course to the fact that usually - the dirver is just complying with the demos (prevailing rate of speed of all other cars). And in a democracy - ain't that the point??

RK