Nannies or not? HPDE instructors weigh in
04-21-2017, 01:38 PM
#61
Three Wheelin'
I'm so with you on the second point. I hate that word. I could probably write a days worth of reading on the subject, but I'll keep it somewhat short. The technology in the cars nowadays is so advanced that a lot of these systems are legit performance systems and can actually make everyone faster. There is a level of slip that the systems can control that, in my experience, even high level drivers can't detect or control meaning the systems can work in a narrower bandwidth and produce a performance level that can exceed even those drivers. The electronics are so ingrained in the operations of the vehicle that there really isn't a pure connection to the car like there was in say the 80s or 90s (or earlier). Throttle by wire, rear steer, PDK, etc. You could almost make the case that there is no way to take full control of the vehicle so why turn the ESC system off. It really comes down to the goals of the driver and their expectations. I'd never get in the car with anyone I don't 1000% trust with the system fully off.
04-21-2017, 02:31 PM
#63
I have two opinions based on the liability I face.
If I am in a position to be held liable for the consequences (either as a classroom or in-car instructor, or someone at a PCA event serving as someone who is "experienced" and doling out advice): leave it all on 100%
If I am in a position where I am trying to help/aid someone I trust, to truly become a better driver: Turn all that sh*t off and turn it off from day 1.
The new cars, the nannies are SO good, they intervene WAY before any dash lights come on, power gets cut, etc. They just "do their thing" in the background. And I've found, with several students, they really can cover up bad driving and reinforce bad habits that will be MUCH harder to correct later - and they have NO IDEA that the system is helping them in the least.
I've also learned it allows the student to progress to a track pace that puts them WAY ahead of their ability level when things really go wrong. You *can* spin a car even with PSM on (seen it happen! With a novice student no less!) If the student progresses to a pace where even the *PSM* can't save their butt... then in NO WAY will they have the ability or knowledge to know how to take over from PSM and keep themselves out of trouble.
A third finding: once they HAVE achieved a particular pace, relying on the nannies to get them there... if they THEN decide, "Okay, I've got some skills, so NOW I'm going to try turning them off and doing this the manual way" it could prove disastrous. I've seen THAT too. Buddy learned his new car by leaving nannies ON, got to a point where he felt comfortable before deciding to turn them off - but the nannies also allowed him to achieve a pace that he could NOT achieve WITHOUT the nannies. First lap without nannies... first TURN... immediate 360 spin.
From there, he didn't want to slow down or back off the pace (because what fun is that?) so he returned to driving with the nannies on.
Had he started, from Day 1, with them off... he would have progressed to that pace more slowly, but eventually, and with good habits.
If I am in a position to be held liable for the consequences (either as a classroom or in-car instructor, or someone at a PCA event serving as someone who is "experienced" and doling out advice): leave it all on 100%
If I am in a position where I am trying to help/aid someone I trust, to truly become a better driver: Turn all that sh*t off and turn it off from day 1.
The new cars, the nannies are SO good, they intervene WAY before any dash lights come on, power gets cut, etc. They just "do their thing" in the background. And I've found, with several students, they really can cover up bad driving and reinforce bad habits that will be MUCH harder to correct later - and they have NO IDEA that the system is helping them in the least.
I've also learned it allows the student to progress to a track pace that puts them WAY ahead of their ability level when things really go wrong. You *can* spin a car even with PSM on (seen it happen! With a novice student no less!) If the student progresses to a pace where even the *PSM* can't save their butt... then in NO WAY will they have the ability or knowledge to know how to take over from PSM and keep themselves out of trouble.
A third finding: once they HAVE achieved a particular pace, relying on the nannies to get them there... if they THEN decide, "Okay, I've got some skills, so NOW I'm going to try turning them off and doing this the manual way" it could prove disastrous. I've seen THAT too. Buddy learned his new car by leaving nannies ON, got to a point where he felt comfortable before deciding to turn them off - but the nannies also allowed him to achieve a pace that he could NOT achieve WITHOUT the nannies. First lap without nannies... first TURN... immediate 360 spin.
From there, he didn't want to slow down or back off the pace (because what fun is that?) so he returned to driving with the nannies on.
Had he started, from Day 1, with them off... he would have progressed to that pace more slowly, but eventually, and with good habits.
04-21-2017, 02:42 PM
#64
I have two opinions based on the liability I face.
If I am in a position to be held liable for the consequences (either as a classroom or in-car instructor, or someone at a PCA event serving as someone who is "experienced" and doling out advice): leave it all on 100%
If I am in a position where I am trying to help/aid someone I trust, to truly become a better driver: Turn all that sh*t off and turn it off from day 1.
The new cars, the nannies are SO good, they intervene WAY before any dash lights come on, power gets cut, etc. They just "do their thing" in the background. And I've found, with several students, they really can cover up bad driving and reinforce bad habits that will be MUCH harder to correct later - and they have NO IDEA that the system is helping them in the least.
I've also learned it allows the student to progress to a track pace that puts them WAY ahead of their ability level when things really go wrong. You *can* spin a car even with PSM on (seen it happen! With a novice student no less!) If the student progresses to a pace where even the *PSM* can't save their butt... then in NO WAY will they have the ability or knowledge to know how to take over from PSM and keep themselves out of trouble.
A third finding: once they HAVE achieved a particular pace, relying on the nannies to get them there... if they THEN decide, "Okay, I've got some skills, so NOW I'm going to try turning them off and doing this the manual way" it could prove disastrous. I've seen THAT too. Buddy learned his new car by leaving nannies ON, got to a point where he felt comfortable before deciding to turn them off - but the nannies also allowed him to achieve a pace that he could NOT achieve WITHOUT the nannies. First lap without nannies... first TURN... immediate 360 spin.
From there, he didn't want to slow down or back off the pace (because what fun is that?) so he returned to driving with the nannies on.
Had he started, from Day 1, with them off... he would have progressed to that pace more slowly, but eventually, and with good habits.
If I am in a position to be held liable for the consequences (either as a classroom or in-car instructor, or someone at a PCA event serving as someone who is "experienced" and doling out advice): leave it all on 100%
If I am in a position where I am trying to help/aid someone I trust, to truly become a better driver: Turn all that sh*t off and turn it off from day 1.
The new cars, the nannies are SO good, they intervene WAY before any dash lights come on, power gets cut, etc. They just "do their thing" in the background. And I've found, with several students, they really can cover up bad driving and reinforce bad habits that will be MUCH harder to correct later - and they have NO IDEA that the system is helping them in the least.
I've also learned it allows the student to progress to a track pace that puts them WAY ahead of their ability level when things really go wrong. You *can* spin a car even with PSM on (seen it happen! With a novice student no less!) If the student progresses to a pace where even the *PSM* can't save their butt... then in NO WAY will they have the ability or knowledge to know how to take over from PSM and keep themselves out of trouble.
A third finding: once they HAVE achieved a particular pace, relying on the nannies to get them there... if they THEN decide, "Okay, I've got some skills, so NOW I'm going to try turning them off and doing this the manual way" it could prove disastrous. I've seen THAT too. Buddy learned his new car by leaving nannies ON, got to a point where he felt comfortable before deciding to turn them off - but the nannies also allowed him to achieve a pace that he could NOT achieve WITHOUT the nannies. First lap without nannies... first TURN... immediate 360 spin.
From there, he didn't want to slow down or back off the pace (because what fun is that?) so he returned to driving with the nannies on.
Had he started, from Day 1, with them off... he would have progressed to that pace more slowly, but eventually, and with good habits.
04-21-2017, 03:57 PM
#65
That's an interesting point. Most new drivers have never driven a non assisted car. I can see the point of turning them off from day one (even though they are still there) but .. The save your butt feature may be a legal liability if as a PCA instructor you tell them to turn it off. I'll check with my "legal" associates
04-21-2017, 05:07 PM
#66
Three Wheelin'
"Instructor preservation" is not over rated!
When you sit in the right seat of a
green or yellow student that you just met that morning, and they have Carrera S with 420HP, or a GT3 with 450+ HP, or a Turbo S with 550 HP, does anyone who instructs really think that turning off the nannies is a good idea?
Sitting in the right seat, PSM means PORSCHE saves me! Been there, done that.
When you sit in the right seat of a
green or yellow student that you just met that morning, and they have Carrera S with 420HP, or a GT3 with 450+ HP, or a Turbo S with 550 HP, does anyone who instructs really think that turning off the nannies is a good idea?
Sitting in the right seat, PSM means PORSCHE saves me! Been there, done that.
04-21-2017, 06:44 PM
#67
That's an interesting point. Most new drivers have never driven a non assisted car. I can see the point of turning them off from day one (even though they are still there) but .. The save your butt feature may be a legal liability if as a PCA instructor you tell them to turn it off. I'll check with my "legal" associates
If I, acting in some capacity as a representative of the PCA, formally/officially recommend someone turn the nannies off, and they proceed to wrap their car around a guard rail.... I'm certain the attorneys will find SOME sliver of responsibility for it.
As such, when in any sort of official capacity, I always recommend leaving EVERYTHING on. While IMO it will completely stunt their growth as a driver... I'm not about to be the one to put myself, other instructors, or the club as a whole, at risk.
04-21-2017, 06:52 PM
#68
When a newby can go down the straights faster than my 04 GT3 or my old 930 than any aids is very important. A VERY strong coach is needed in the right seat. I use to take on "challenging" students as an extra hobby- it's much different now.
04-21-2017, 07:02 PM
#69
Yes. That too. Instructing is a very different game now.
15 years ago, "instructor preservation" and "learning the proper skills to drive" went hand in hand.
Cars are so fast now... you sacrifice proper skills for instructor preservation.
15 years ago, "instructor preservation" and "learning the proper skills to drive" went hand in hand.
Cars are so fast now... you sacrifice proper skills for instructor preservation.
04-21-2017, 07:40 PM
#70
It's ON for sure with any student until it's not. But, in my opinion, the question is more about how do you adapt teaching to include PSM sensitity and correction. PSM numbs feel and feel is something all good drivers have or have acquired through hard work and/or costly lessons. Most old schools instructors didn't learn with PSM and it's foreign to them. Now we have new instructors that have only ever run with PSM (hell, more and more can't heel/toe). This trend will continue to grow. And I totally agree with Omni that it's breeding ignorance and numbing feel. I've seen the same scary results from high run group drivers deciding to turn them off without the proper prep. And if you're content driving forever with PSM, so be it.
I believe PSM is a good learning tool and it should be focused on once a driver has moved out of green (true beginner). Sure the systems are getting more subtle but a good instructor knows what's good technique vs technology helping out. I look/feel very intently for PSM and don't rely on the dash. If something's too good to be true I focus on my own feel. Then I try to narrow the student's focus to that spot/corner and fix their inputs without turning off the system. "Let's be quicker than the computer" Some students have an ah ha moment and progress well. Others just want to drive fast and don't have the patience or want to look and feel for subtleties.....then I try to get out of the car and tell them PSM FTW!!!
I believe PSM is a good learning tool and it should be focused on once a driver has moved out of green (true beginner). Sure the systems are getting more subtle but a good instructor knows what's good technique vs technology helping out. I look/feel very intently for PSM and don't rely on the dash. If something's too good to be true I focus on my own feel. Then I try to narrow the student's focus to that spot/corner and fix their inputs without turning off the system. "Let's be quicker than the computer" Some students have an ah ha moment and progress well. Others just want to drive fast and don't have the patience or want to look and feel for subtleties.....then I try to get out of the car and tell them PSM FTW!!!
04-21-2017, 08:21 PM
#71
Originally Posted by LuigiVampa
If you want zero risk you stay home. Its a balancing act.
My first track car was pure stock, fully analog.
So is my second track car, only it's a smaller engine and fully track prepped.
Personally, I don't do nannies and I don't do all-wheel-drive bc I feel both compromise my learning .
AND I respect my students' wishes if they want to keep them on.
OTOH, I've never driven a *truly* powerful (GT3 or Viper etc) car on track,
So perhaps my opinion would be different if I was in a 997.2 cup car.
04-21-2017, 08:24 PM
#72
Originally Posted by OmniGLH
I have two opinions based on the liability I face.
If I am in a position to be held liable for the consequences (either as a classroom or in-car instructor, or someone at a PCA event serving as someone who is "experienced" and doling out advice): leave it all on 100%
If I am in a position where I am trying to help/aid someone I trust, to truly become a better driver: Turn all that sh*t off and turn it off from day 1.
The new cars, the nannies are SO good, they intervene WAY before any dash lights come on, power gets cut, etc. They just "do their thing" in the background. And I've found, with several students, they really can cover up bad driving and reinforce bad habits that will be MUCH harder to correct later - and they have NO IDEA that the system is helping them in the least.
I've also learned it allows the student to progress to a track pace that puts them WAY ahead of their ability level when things really go wrong. You *can* spin a car even with PSM on (seen it happen! With a novice student no less!) If the student progresses to a pace where even the *PSM* can't save their butt... then in NO WAY will they have the ability or knowledge to know how to take over from PSM and keep themselves out of trouble.
A third finding: once they HAVE achieved a particular pace, relying on the nannies to get them there... if they THEN decide, "Okay, I've got some skills, so NOW I'm going to try turning them off and doing this the manual way" it could prove disastrous. I've seen THAT too. Buddy learned his new car by leaving nannies ON, got to a point where he felt comfortable before deciding to turn them off - but the nannies also allowed him to achieve a pace that he could NOT achieve WITHOUT the nannies. First lap without nannies... first TURN... immediate 360 spin.
From there, he didn't want to slow down or back off the pace (because what fun is that?) so he returned to driving with the nannies on.
Had he started, from Day 1, with them off... he would have progressed to that pace more slowly, but eventually, and with good habits.
If I am in a position to be held liable for the consequences (either as a classroom or in-car instructor, or someone at a PCA event serving as someone who is "experienced" and doling out advice): leave it all on 100%
If I am in a position where I am trying to help/aid someone I trust, to truly become a better driver: Turn all that sh*t off and turn it off from day 1.
The new cars, the nannies are SO good, they intervene WAY before any dash lights come on, power gets cut, etc. They just "do their thing" in the background. And I've found, with several students, they really can cover up bad driving and reinforce bad habits that will be MUCH harder to correct later - and they have NO IDEA that the system is helping them in the least.
I've also learned it allows the student to progress to a track pace that puts them WAY ahead of their ability level when things really go wrong. You *can* spin a car even with PSM on (seen it happen! With a novice student no less!) If the student progresses to a pace where even the *PSM* can't save their butt... then in NO WAY will they have the ability or knowledge to know how to take over from PSM and keep themselves out of trouble.
A third finding: once they HAVE achieved a particular pace, relying on the nannies to get them there... if they THEN decide, "Okay, I've got some skills, so NOW I'm going to try turning them off and doing this the manual way" it could prove disastrous. I've seen THAT too. Buddy learned his new car by leaving nannies ON, got to a point where he felt comfortable before deciding to turn them off - but the nannies also allowed him to achieve a pace that he could NOT achieve WITHOUT the nannies. First lap without nannies... first TURN... immediate 360 spin.
From there, he didn't want to slow down or back off the pace (because what fun is that?) so he returned to driving with the nannies on.
Had he started, from Day 1, with them off... he would have progressed to that pace more slowly, but eventually, and with good habits.
Great points here.
04-21-2017, 08:58 PM
#73
Instructor
Thread Starter
The new cars, the nannies are SO good, they intervene WAY before any dash lights come on, power gets cut, etc. They just "do their thing" in the background...
Buddy learned his new car by leaving nannies ON, got to a point where he felt comfortable before deciding to turn them off - but the nannies also allowed him to achieve a pace that he could NOT achieve WITHOUT the nannies. First lap without nannies... first TURN... immediate 360 spin.
Buddy learned his new car by leaving nannies ON, got to a point where he felt comfortable before deciding to turn them off - but the nannies also allowed him to achieve a pace that he could NOT achieve WITHOUT the nannies. First lap without nannies... first TURN... immediate 360 spin.
04-22-2017, 10:51 AM
#74
Well said. It's track driving, not needlepoint.
My first track car was pure stock, fully analog.
So is my second track car, only it's a smaller engine and fully track prepped.
Personally, I don't do nannies and I don't do all-wheel-drive bc I feel both compromise my learning .
AND I respect my students' wishes if they want to keep them on.
OTOH, I've never driven a *truly* powerful (GT3 or Viper etc) car on track,
So perhaps my opinion would be different if I was in a 997.2 cup car.
My first track car was pure stock, fully analog.
So is my second track car, only it's a smaller engine and fully track prepped.
Personally, I don't do nannies and I don't do all-wheel-drive bc I feel both compromise my learning .
AND I respect my students' wishes if they want to keep them on.
OTOH, I've never driven a *truly* powerful (GT3 or Viper etc) car on track,
So perhaps my opinion would be different if I was in a 997.2 cup car.
Turbo S at speed = 1.2KG of TNT - enough to flatten it and probably the tow vehicle that brought it.
Mitata at speed = 200g of TNT - enough to flatten a bicycle.
From a learning perspective, everyone is making excellent points. It's more difficult to truly learn to operate a motor vehicle at its limits when a computer is doing it for you or buffering feedback from you. From a safety perspective however, it is much easier to get hurt in most of the new machinery showing up at DEs these days. For some instructors, ability to accept risk is a badge they wear and metric of how they rate their peers. With three kids and a touch with death, I'm no longer in that camp.
04-22-2017, 11:57 AM
#75
Rennlist Member
Since I hit Medicare, i.e. old fart, I don't instruct anymore. Nannies or not when a newbie can hit 150mph into turn 17 at Sebring I decided it was time to let the young and brave sit right seat.
Peter
Peter