Crazy track session
Drifting
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 2,848
Likes: 55
From: The Republic
IMO, groupings and vetting those wanting to be in certain groups, both up and down, is CRITICAL to establishing balance within the group.
It used to be that there was an unending cycle of folks who were wanting to be promoted or assigned to a "higher experience or car/driver potential" group than their experience/capability warranted.
Now, I have seen folks in BIG performance potential cars intentionally "underrate" their abilities or experience so that they get placed in a "lesser experience or car/driver potential" group where their speed (and often skill, going the other way) is often far out of the median of the rest of the group. This so they can "pass everything in the group" and avoid being overrun in the more advanced group.
It's always tough to get the balance right, but it can be done. And NEEDS to be done, for safety, IMO.
It used to be that there was an unending cycle of folks who were wanting to be promoted or assigned to a "higher experience or car/driver potential" group than their experience/capability warranted.
Now, I have seen folks in BIG performance potential cars intentionally "underrate" their abilities or experience so that they get placed in a "lesser experience or car/driver potential" group where their speed (and often skill, going the other way) is often far out of the median of the rest of the group. This so they can "pass everything in the group" and avoid being overrun in the more advanced group.
It's always tough to get the balance right, but it can be done. And NEEDS to be done, for safety, IMO.
Racer
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 481
Likes: 28
From: Phoenix East Valley
That's the challenge of trying to keep things safe in an inherently dangerous sport. I'm the current safety chair for the AZPCA and although I do what I can do ensure cars are teched and safety gear (helmets, harnesses) is current and correct...ultimately you just can't save people from themselves once they are out on track.
One thing I really like about NASA events is that they have a driver "download" or debrief after each session to identify the good and bad of what took place out on track. I think that's really helpful in keeping everyone calibrated and doing what they are supposed too.
One thing I really like about NASA events is that they have a driver "download" or debrief after each session to identify the good and bad of what took place out on track. I think that's really helpful in keeping everyone calibrated and doing what they are supposed too.
Rennlist Member
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 1,422
Likes: 96
From: Philadelphia, PA
Never done it but I like that download concept..
Even if it's not at the end of each session and or end of day one.
Each run group gets together and chats...
One thing I liked about a recent event at sebring was that the did a pre grid and asked people to line up to where they belong.
Laptime under x on row 1 and above in row 2
Within a row find the spot where you belong. You spend a good part of session with people around you who at do similar speeds: safer but also more fun
You would see people adjust up down as things worked out on track.
Even if it's not at the end of each session and or end of day one.
Each run group gets together and chats...
One thing I liked about a recent event at sebring was that the did a pre grid and asked people to line up to where they belong.
Laptime under x on row 1 and above in row 2
Within a row find the spot where you belong. You spend a good part of session with people around you who at do similar speeds: safer but also more fun
You would see people adjust up down as things worked out on track.
Rennlist Member
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 17,250
Likes: 2,219
From: SoCal
Yeah, pretty much. I showed up at a track day in my 964 with a group I don't normally run with. I ran in intermediate as advanced was full on race cars and lots of Porsche GT cars. First session I immediate moved to advanced. 3rd lap I get a point, inside pass, normal stuff, first the idiot doesn't lift, I get by him OK then he starts to turn in on me. Had to slam on the brakes and he spun out.
Intermediate
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 35
Likes: 4
From: Central Florida
I absolutely agree with transponders in all cars to gauge ability. I have been with Chin most of my DE life since I have seen buffoonery in other DE experiences. I am very comfortable in Advanced groups in Chin since I know them and trust them. I would run in other DE groups if transponders are required.
Rennlist Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 9,149
Likes: 1,658
Rennlist Member
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,872
Likes: 222
From: Schattenbaum/MNY Regions
I absolutely agree with transponders in all cars to gauge ability. I have been with Chin most of my DE life since I have seen buffoonery in other DE experiences. I am very comfortable in Advanced groups in Chin since I know them and trust them. I would run in other DE groups if transponders are required.
But to the earlier point, I think it's experience and skill more than speed that is the key to good run groupings. Miata drivers with good skills and great track awareness do OK at DE with faster cars, as long as everyone, both faster and slower, is predicable and aware.
Rennlist
Basic Site Sponsor
Basic Site Sponsor
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 20,335
Likes: 4,735
From: Durham, NC and Virginia International Raceway
I absolutely agree with transponders in all cars to gauge ability. I have been with Chin most of my DE life since I have seen buffoonery in other DE experiences. I am very comfortable in Advanced groups in Chin since I know them and trust them. I would run in other DE groups if transponders are required.
i prefer an interview and a review of documented experience. Awareness, buy-in to a safe and courteous DE culture is what I am looking for, not slotting the whole lot according to one, broad and incomplete measure.
I have seen TrackDaze use OPTIONAL RFID tags, but few DE folks invest in or use AMB or other transponders for this purpose. I don't think Chin requires or suggests using them.
Rennlist Stories
The Best Porsche Posts for Porsche Enthusiasts
9 Features and Characteristics That Only Porsche People Understand
Verdad Gallardo
I've Written 500 Rennlist Articles: Here's How Porsche Has Changed Along the Way
Joe Kucinski
10 Most Unnecessary Porsches Ever Built (And Why We Love Them)
Verdad Gallardo
Porsche 911 GT3 S/C vs 718 Spyder RS: 10 Categories, One Winner
Joe Kucinski
This Builder Is Turning Heads With Its Slantnose 911 Creation
Verdad Gallardo
Porsche 911 GT3 Artisan Edition Pays Homage to Japanese Culture
Verdad Gallardo
Porsche Reveals Coupe Variant of the Electric Cayenne With a Fresh Look
Verdad Gallardo
10 Porsche Colors That Have More Personality Than Most People
Verdad Gallardo
Guntherwerks' Final Speedster Creation Is the Ultimate Porsche Restomod
Verdad Gallardo
Nordschleife Master
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,695
Likes: 136
Transponders changes the insurance for the groups. Suddenly they become "timed events".
I would not expect many orgs to adopt timing equipment.
Plus, as ProCoach says... laptime is only one of several measures for a driver's ability. One guy sets a FLYER of a lap but is out of control, vs. the guy who sets an okay lap BUT is consistent, under control, observant, etc.
Really probably a good "requirement" for allowing people to move up? Check rides. Put somebody in the car (or lead/follow) and require a personal sign-off before a group bump.
A lot of participants will complain, I'm sure.
I would not expect many orgs to adopt timing equipment.
Plus, as ProCoach says... laptime is only one of several measures for a driver's ability. One guy sets a FLYER of a lap but is out of control, vs. the guy who sets an okay lap BUT is consistent, under control, observant, etc.
Really probably a good "requirement" for allowing people to move up? Check rides. Put somebody in the car (or lead/follow) and require a personal sign-off before a group bump.
A lot of participants will complain, I'm sure.
Rennlist
Basic Site Sponsor
Basic Site Sponsor
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 20,335
Likes: 4,735
From: Durham, NC and Virginia International Raceway
It is ONLY WHEN THOSE TIMES are COLLECTIVELY, CENTRALLY and PUBLICLY posted, hence available for READY, PUBLIC comparison, that it becomes an insurance issue. One of the greatest fallacies of the DE organizing mind hive...
On the latter, that's the ONLY way Chin does it, through check rides. Even experienced Chin drivers, at a new track, must go through the check ride in a more novice group to allow the organizers key access, to make sure that driver has their head on straight.
__________________
-Peter Krause
www.peterkrause.net
www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
-Peter Krause
www.peterkrause.net
www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
Nordschleife Master
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,695
Likes: 136
For the former, the addition of transponders or timing equipment ALONE does not alter the insurance underwriting for DE or other non-competition events, contrary to some club's beliefs. Fought this old wive's tale for decades...
It is ONLY WHEN THOSE TIMES are COLLECTIVELY, CENTRALLY and PUBLICLY posted, hence available for READY, PUBLIC comparison, that it becomes an insurance issue. One of the greatest fallacies of the DE organizing mind hive...
On the latter, that's the ONLY way Chin does it, through check rides. Even experienced Chin drivers, at a new track, must go through the check ride in a more novice group to allow the organizers key access, to make sure that driver has their head on straight.
It is ONLY WHEN THOSE TIMES are COLLECTIVELY, CENTRALLY and PUBLICLY posted, hence available for READY, PUBLIC comparison, that it becomes an insurance issue. One of the greatest fallacies of the DE organizing mind hive...
On the latter, that's the ONLY way Chin does it, through check rides. Even experienced Chin drivers, at a new track, must go through the check ride in a more novice group to allow the organizers key access, to make sure that driver has their head on straight.
Transponder data would NOT be available to anyone but event officials. That would alleviate most of that concern (though you KNOW the "officials" would be competing amongst each other lol...)
Rennlist
Basic Site Sponsor
Basic Site Sponsor
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 20,335
Likes: 4,735
From: Durham, NC and Virginia International Raceway
Rennlist Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 9,149
Likes: 1,658
Racer
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 435
Likes: 1
From: NJ / NY
Car to car is a huge no-no. It's a clear indication that the drivers are not aware of their surroundings or driving in a predictable manner. Your single lap sounded insane - you should have purchased a lottery ticket to test your luck.