MaxLTV

I realized I have an issue with vision in high-speed or long corners - my eyes/brain tell me I'm heading for the edge of the track, but I end up pretty far from it or need to unwind a lot (reducing total G) to get to the edge.

Examples would be at Thunderhill T1, T7, and T8, and at Sonoma T6 and T9. T7 at Thunderhill is particularly interesting because I go through it every time at a consistent speed (no braking or lift needed), so I know exactly what's going to happen and yet every time it I can swear I'm driving off the track, but I end up 2-3 feet inside.

It does not happen in other corners, though - in most other corners I end up exactly where my brain tells me I will be, within half a foot at the worst. This effect makes me lack confidence and either overslow the car for these turns or make turns tighter than they need to be. Of course, I remember that what I see is not what it is, and try to adjust for that, but I almost keep guessing how much to adjust rather than just knowing what to do, like in other corners.

I'm trying to understand what I might be doing wrong and I have some hypotheses - the corners are high-speed, long, with track-out not visible from turn-in or even apex in some (but not all).

What could be the problem and a technique to fix it?

FeuerRacing

This sounds weird but what I do is lower my seat where I can't see my hood. My eyes are a couple inches over the dash and everyone that sits my cars always says "holy !@#% your seat is low!" in which I typically reply that I like the lower center of gravity but it's really about making sure my eyes are forced down the track.

I've heard of some international racing schools that will black out the bottom of the windshield to force using the top 1/2 if you can't get the seat low.

Sometimes the only way to change it is to force the change where driving off the hood simply isn't possible.

ProCoach

Often, I get people situated in their cars, then install a 6" long clear cellophane tape strip across laterally from C-pillar towards the centerline, such that the driver is seeing a point on the road 200-300 feet away from the front of the car. Good gauge and great reminder.

Fast corners are daunting because, as we go quicker, our vision tends to narrow and fall nearer to the front and side of the car, causing us to think we can't sustain the speed through the upcoming direction change. The higher your eyes, the less the "picket fence" effect and the more your MIND can "slow things down."

Good luck!

Drjimh

In sports vision we teach athletes focus on a reference point. ie with a Hockey Player shooting the puck, look to the open part of the net where you see netting not at the goalie. In baseball find the release point of the pitcher and focus there. Golf, you will pick a distant target and one on the ground where you want to try to hit the ball connecting the two points. It sounds as though on the corners in question you are not picking the correct reference points for your brake point, turn in and exit. I am not familiar with those tracks, so I would recommend getting an instructor to ride with you and find out their reference points. As a general rule you are going to go where you look! If it is a blind corner pick a spot on the horizon just at the level of the track and drive to that point. Once you crest the corner you will need another visual reference point to transition too to complete your turn if that makes sense? The other challenge that goes into this is knowing what type of learner you are? Auditory or Visual. A visual learner will see it and do it. An Auditory learner needs to be talked through it. Good Luck! Hope that gives you a little help
Jim

audipwr1

As you drive out loud you should call the corner

1. Entry
2. Apex
3. Exit

Out loud literally talking to yourself you should call them one ahead of the step you are at and you should look at what you say

By saying it out loud it'll out your focus there instead of overly thinking about visuals should fix this up

Depends on hp of your car but btw you don't need Apex for t7 at thill for most cars

fleadh

IMO, it sounds like in the fast corners you aren't looking far enough ahead throughout the entire corner.

You take T7 flat at Thunderhill?

My simple rule: if I'm not using enough track out on any corner, get on the power earlier (smoothly). :-)

-mike

MaxLTV

I will definitely try that next time. It may indeed be not looking far enough, especially since I know that I tend to overslow the car for such corners so I drop my eyes down to check tachometer/Solo DL at turn entry, probably making things worse.

MaxLTV

I think you are right, especially with me checking speed before corners to battle my over-braking.

T7 at Thunderhill can be done flat in my GT3 on a dry track and fresh tires, although a very small breathe at turn in costs no speed and feels better (probably less scrubbing that way). But it's a flat turn in most other cars as well. It's the T8 that's flat only in low-power or high-aero cars. I need to brake for T8 a little.

audipwr1

And T8 too when the weather is right

ProCoach

Slower car... It's all relative...

audipwr1

Haha yes I'm aware

C4 Pazzo

Does it happen in fast right hand turns? E.,g., T8 and T10 at Sonoma; T15 THill? How's your right eye vs left eye vision?

Mahler9th

I don't know how much experience you have, but it sounds like you still need to work on some basics, both on the track and off.

Including a better understanding of the theories involved.

The "seat of the pants" feeling you can get in these corners can contribute to a feeling of impending doom, for example "I am not going to make it." Especially with a heavy street car that pushes on entry. This can contribute to what you might perceive as a vision problem.

Do you know whether your line is correct?

I suggest trying to run those tracks with an organization like the PCA GGR and getting some instruction from someone with plenty of experience.

I also suggest that you implement some in car video, and use it properly between sessions and away from the track. Work with others who know what they are doing and can relate to your car.

I have a lot of experience with all of the corners you have mentioned. Now... more than a couple of decades.

Some good advice here, some bad.

Saying you don't need to apex a corner based on hp is just plain wrong and reflects a lack of basic knowledge.

When people give advice like this in these forums, I shudder.

Go back to basics.

Mahler9th

I once did a track day at Thunderhill with a local group. About 5 years back. I was there with my current race car.

As I sat and ate breakfast, the "guest/volunteer" lead instructor gave a chalk talk to a bunch of folks with mixed experience that had not ever driven the track.

I was appalled when he told them that they did not have to brake for turn 1. I could not contain myself so I raised my hand an asked if he was sure. He said yes, no one at the event could possibly need to brake for 1 and that they should work up to that as an afternoon goal.

He said that the same was true for turn 8.

I responded that I had to brake for both of these corners, and he replied, "you think you have to, but you don't."

I told him what I was driving, and he turned red and shut his mouth.

All 6-12 of those people stayed behind after his chalk talk and I chatted with them and gave them some different (and more accurate ) perspective.

Reminds me when I heard a bunch of instructors saying that 3, 4, 5 and 6 at Laguna were all 90 degree turns.

Learn the right things from the right people, and focus on the craft. Focus on the signal and not the noise.

Mahler9th

More:

If you are dropping your eyes on corner entry, this may not be helpful. I can think of many ways to correct that... even from the right seat.

Sounds like you have a lot going on, and may need to break things down into little pieces.

Even if you have a lot of solo laps at these tracks, I suggest going back to fundamentals.