When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
And that would be what? Some may not know that it is safety equipment so you may want to expand and explain what you mean.
I'm sure that most of this would be people not wearing a firesuit or other fire protection that they already own.
People have gotten in my car and not worn their HANS because it's 'just a miata" which made me laugh. Yeah, *only* 110 at the end of the straight, nothing bad could possibly happen at such speeds. Why don't we drive over to your trailer and get your HANS, just to humor me.
I'm sure that most of this would be people not wearing a firesuit or other fire protection that they already own.
Owning fire protection is not on the list of the vast majority of people I know. Unles you are referring to gloves like this
I realize that I'm being over the top here. But to make an assumption that what you own the majority owns is way out there. Thats why I didn't "*** u me" what was meant and asked for a listing of specifics. This way any newbie to DEs reading this thread gets an idea.
Owning fire protection is not on the list of the vast majority of people I know. Unles you are referring to gloves like this
I realize that I'm being over the top here. But to make an assumption that what you own the majority owns is way out there. Thats why I didn't "*** u me" what was meant and asked for a listing of specifics. This way any newbie to DEs reading this thread gets an idea.
No, it's logic. No one is going out there without their helmet or their seat belt so what's left? What's optional? Gloves, shoes, underwear, firesuit, balaclava, fire extinguisher. What else is optional? No one is removing their roll bar or taking out their cage. Everyone leaves the steering wheel in the car (Yonker excluded).
You seem to be demanding "evidence" when the answer can be easily deduced.
It isn't about what I own or don't own, it's what exists in the world and people leave in the trailer. For the record, I don't own a firesuit. I probably should. But I've made that choice. If I did own one, I'd wear it 100%.
No, it's logic. No one is going out there without their helmet or their seat belt so what's left? What's optional? Gloves, shoes, underwear, firesuit, balaclava, fire extinguisher. What else is optional? No one is removing their roll bar or taking out their cage. Everyone leaves the steering wheel in the car (Yonker excluded).
You seem to be demanding "evidence" when the answer can be easily deduced.
It isn't about what I own or don't own, it's what exists in the world and people leave in the trailer. For the record, I don't own a firesuit. I probably should. But I've made that choice. If I did own one, I'd wear it 100%.
From the top.
I asked stownsen914 to expand his own comment. You came in and started on fire protection by quoting my question to stownsen914. Now you are taken it out of the ballpark and away from the original request. Do you know for certain what he meant or are you guessing? There have been posts on RL about people not "owning" a helmet and wanting to participate in a DE. My region has loaner helmets for our members first, participants second. Some other regions have those as well on a first come basis. And you comment about "not going without their sealbelts". I don't know of any region that will let a participant on track without those and in use. Unless you are saying that you have seen cars without trying to go on track. How did those cars pass tech?
Communication is a vital part of safety. Therefore is has to be good. You see how easy language can be misinterpreted, even more so in a written forum post where not everybody knows you or where you are coming from.
I think most people should be caged. But I'm just very cynical about humanity these days.
Let's start with the open wheel racers!
Originally Posted by DTMiller
No, it's logic. No one is going out there without their helmet or their seat belt so what's left? What's optional? Gloves, shoes, underwear, firesuit, balaclava, fire extinguisher. What else is optional? No one is removing their roll bar or taking out their cage. Everyone leaves the steering wheel in the car (Yonker excluded).
You seem to be demanding "evidence" when the answer can be easily deduced.
It isn't about what I own or don't own, it's what exists in the world and people leave in the trailer. For the record, I don't own a firesuit. I probably should. But I've made that choice. If I did own one, I'd wear it 100%.
This.
Let's break this argument up into two parts:
1. Is additional safety equipment worthwhile?
I believe we can all agree that the answer to this is yes! It isn't always going to save you but it helps to even the odds.
2. Will a requirement for additional safety gear hurt DE programs?
This is where we can all express our opinions because there is no right or wrong answer.
Personally, to oversimplify my argument, I think the faster you go the more safety gear should be mandated.
Insurance premiums go up when there is a loss. Everyone knows this. Why is this news when we apply the same formula to track events?
Since we are making confessions I will admit that I drove my 944 on track last year in jeans and running shoes in the session immediately after lunch. It was back to the race suit for the next session. Don't want to set myself up to be a hypocrite.
In my opinion, the issue of fire suits should be separate for street cars vs caged race cars, Why? Fire suits, as I understand it, are designed to give you more time to exit a burning vehicle without getting burned and/or lessening the severity of the burn.
Under most conditions exiting a street car is a much quicker and easier operation. Getting out of a caged car is much more time consuming. As a result, I'm of the opinion that the fire suit is MUCH more important if you have a cage.
We require belts and helmets because the risk of an impact is relatively high. Fires are much more rare (excluding 951s of course). I prefer for people to be educated on the risks associated with what they are doing, and allow them to make an informed decision.
Under most conditions exiting a street car is a much quicker and easier operation. Getting out of a caged car is much more time consuming. As a result, I'm of the opinion that the fire suit is MUCH more important if you have a cage.
In my opinion, the issue of fire suits should be separate for street cars vs caged race cars, Why? Fire suits, as I understand it, are designed to give you more time to exit a burning vehicle without getting burned and/or lessening the severity of the burn.
Under most conditions exiting a street car is a much quicker and easier operation. Getting out of a caged car is much more time consuming. As a result, I'm of the opinion that the fire suit is MUCH more important if you have a cage.
We require belts and helmets because the risk of an impact is relatively high. Fires are much more rare (excluding 951s of course). I prefer for people to be educated on the risks associated with what they are doing, and allow them to make an informed decision.
In my opinion, the issue of fire suits should be separate for street cars vs caged race cars, Why? Fire suits, as I understand it, are designed to give you more time to exit a burning vehicle without getting burned and/or lessening the severity of the burn.
Under most conditions exiting a street car is a much quicker and easier operation. Getting out of a caged car is much more time consuming. As a result, I'm of the opinion that the fire suit is MUCH more important if you have a cage.
We require belts and helmets because the risk of an impact is relatively high. Fires are much more rare (excluding 951s of course). I prefer for people to be educated on the risks associated with what they are doing, and allow them to make an informed decision.
And that would be what? Some may not know that it is safety equipment so you may want to expand and explain what you mean.
I was referring to firesuits (+ gloves and shoes) mostly, and secondarily HANS. My casual observation is that some racers forego these items when at non-race trackdays.
My first point is a totally separate one. It includes items like roll cage, seats, harnesses, etc. Acknowledged that these items all together cost more than a set of tires. Another casual observation though - some enthusiasts will install these safety items in their cars but not invest in other optional safety items like firesuit and HANS.
My original comments below for reference.
Originally Posted by stownsen914
Yep. It's interesting that people skimp on safety equipment that costs less than a set of tires. It's also interesting that some choose not to wear the safety equipment that they already own while participating DE events, because those events are "safer." I do understand the mindset, but I resist thinking that way and wear everything every time I'm on the track. The likelihood of an incident may be lower, but if I hit something hard or God forbid have a fire, I'd feel pretty stupid to not have my safety equipment on ...
In my opinion, the issue of fire suits should be separate for street cars vs caged race cars, Why? Fire suits, as I understand it, are designed to give you more time to exit a burning vehicle without getting burned and/or lessening the severity of the burn.
Under most conditions exiting a street car is a much quicker and easier operation. Getting out of a caged car is much more time consuming. As a result, I'm of the opinion that the fire suit is MUCH more important if you have a cage.
We require belts and helmets because the risk of an impact is relatively high. Fires are much more rare (excluding 951s of course). I prefer for people to be educated on the risks associated with what they are doing, and allow them to make an informed decision.
Now that I've been hooked on this activity for a few years, it would seem to me that, in an ideal world, all DE participants would start out in Spec Miatas until they became fully proficient at advanced car control and high-speed track driving. Only then would they be allowed to run their 600hp Z06s and GTRs. Of course, this would never work because it would turn off too many prospective beginners--Who wants to drive a Miata? Are they kidding me? It's the ignorance that most of us have initially when we don't know any better.
Getting back to the original post, the exotics track experiences do seem to be a recipe for disaster, in a way that DE events are not. I drove a 458 Italia and Gallardo Superleggera at Exotics Racing Las Vegas a few years ago. My reasons were probably typical for most attendees--when else would I have the chance to drive one of these cars? But the fact that I had an initial season of DE under my belt at the time made me the odd man out. I had the correct DE "culture" and attitude already impressed upon me. The vast majority of drivers were casual tourists and hungover bachelor/ette partiers looking for a (not-so) cheap thrill. Taking the average American driver, with their woefully inadequate baseline driver education, their lack of a developed, nuanced feel for the controls, and their attitude of perceived superiority, and placing them in a car with massive power and speed potential, in a rushed setting where they feel they have to maximize their value for their limited lap time, is just asking for a bad outcome.
Now that I think about it, though, advanced DE levels don't necessarily insulate you from these kinds of yahoos. I'm continually surprised by fellow drivers in advanced run groups who go into full attack mode the first couple of laps of a session on cold tires in cool ambient temps. I point them by, and then end up on their tail a couple of laps later because I'm running a few seconds a lap faster then they are once tires and the car are up to temp. Again, has to do with each organization's method of promotion, overall philosophy, etc.
RIP to the driver and instructor in Vegas. Very sad.
With hpde, at least you have some familiarity with the car...unlike these events. And, if you drive like a loon, you are risking YOUR car...
The first couple times I had the 930 on a track, I was in full grannie mode. Everything was passing me... I was sure the car would try to kill each in every turn. Instructor politely asked if my car was working ok...
Once you get familiar with it, you can actually go pretty fast, and safely...
But, you have to work up to it.
In a 4 lap cram session on a track in a Lamborghini, the pressure is to gun it right away...
02-19-2017, 11:30 AM
