Driver & Instructor killed at SpeedVegas
02-18-2017, 05:37 AM
#91
I know that's been your opinion for a while, but please provide us with one example. Again, facts only please.
02-18-2017, 08:45 AM
#92
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One incident is not going to sink the sport. However, if there is a spate of bad luck, its not as far fetched as you think.
My industry had some large losses in 2008 and our bonding went way up and several insurance underwriters exited the business. The additional insurance premiums drove some of my competitors out of business. This is an industry which is bigger than DE.
Lockton, a brand well known in DE circles, is one of those companies that I work with. They raised their rates, lowered their policy limits, and defined their risk more narrowly. All that happened from one year of bad claims.
I'm not trying to say the sky is falling. I'm not trying to say that anyone who doesn't own a race suit is going to kill the sport. But what I am saying is that we have to keep a close eye on safety because, at the very least, it will affect the overall cost of these events if insurance premiums rise due to large payouts.
My industry had some large losses in 2008 and our bonding went way up and several insurance underwriters exited the business. The additional insurance premiums drove some of my competitors out of business. This is an industry which is bigger than DE.
Lockton, a brand well known in DE circles, is one of those companies that I work with. They raised their rates, lowered their policy limits, and defined their risk more narrowly. All that happened from one year of bad claims.
I'm not trying to say the sky is falling. I'm not trying to say that anyone who doesn't own a race suit is going to kill the sport. But what I am saying is that we have to keep a close eye on safety because, at the very least, it will affect the overall cost of these events if insurance premiums rise due to large payouts.
I agree that we need to remain vigilant about safety, and would like to see more systematic sharing of best practices and other safety-related information across organizations. When I was a PCA safety chair, and did dozens of safety classrooms, I was sometimes surprised to see how much drivers didn't know, or misunderstood, with regard to safety, and the reluctance to spend money on safety measures (e.g., HANS) despite being willing to spend a lot of money of other DE expenses (e.g., tires!).
02-18-2017, 09:36 AM
#93
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The analogy I used in my previous post, based on personal experience in my own industry, coupled with knowledge I gained as an executive for a large insurance underwriter, properly expressed my concern and how DE and track events could be affected. I've also had a few conversations with PCA about liability and insurance so I understand a little why certain rules are in place. I'm no "track day insurance expert" but I think I have an understanding.
Additionally, I've been participating in DE events for ten years now and this is my third year of PCA club racing. This is very limited experience compared to some of the august company we enjoy here on RL. But in that short amount of time I have seen a fair share of cars destroyed.
I've been at the track where people have been injured but fortunately, and I do believe because people are diligent about safety, no one has been seriously injured. But, I've also witnessed a few incidents and thought that there must have been Divine Providence for that person not to have been seriously injured or killed.
Again, what I am advocating is for everyone to push for ways to make our sport safer so that we can protect its participants, and also protect the financial feasibility of the sport. I'm not looking to turn the sport into a regulatory nightmare because that isn't what I believe in. We can be smart about it.
Crashes at the track are already common, and I expect that Lockton and others will continue to adjust their insurance premiums to maintain their profit margins. And of course many people drive on track without track insurance, thereby self-insuring. But I don't link that with risk of injury or fatality, which remains very low (which is why it would be useful to know what happened in this SpeedVegas incident).
I agree that we need to remain vigilant about safety, and would like to see more systematic sharing of best practices and other safety-related information across organizations. When I was a PCA safety chair, and did dozens of safety classrooms, I was sometimes surprised to see how much drivers didn't know, or misunderstood, with regard to safety, and the reluctance to spend money on safety measures (e.g., HANS) despite being willing to spend a lot of money of other DE expenses (e.g., tires!).
I agree that we need to remain vigilant about safety, and would like to see more systematic sharing of best practices and other safety-related information across organizations. When I was a PCA safety chair, and did dozens of safety classrooms, I was sometimes surprised to see how much drivers didn't know, or misunderstood, with regard to safety, and the reluctance to spend money on safety measures (e.g., HANS) despite being willing to spend a lot of money of other DE expenses (e.g., tires!).
Your last line about spending on money for performance versus safety is at the crux of my argument.
I'm not advocating a first time green driver show up in a race suit, 5 point safety harness, and all the other safety items racers are required to have. That would kill many DE events.
What I am advocating is that if you are hooked on driving at the track, and progress through the run groups and become a faster driver, you should be required to add some certain levels of safety gear. If you are spending thousands a year on tires, maintenance, and performance upgrades, it is ridiculous if you don't start upgrading your safety gear.
Perhaps mandating additional safety gear will never happen. I'm sure some drivers out west, with their miles of runoff, scoff at these suggestions. I just think that as cars become more powerful, and thankfully, safer, we should continue to reevaluate our safety procedures. If you love this sport I can't imagine disagreeing with that statement.
02-18-2017, 09:48 AM
#94
Rennlist Member
Focusing exclusively on advanced run group participants here:
I think there is a tension between "people make their choices about safety" and the effect that choice could have on the HPDE industry. It's not an uncommon tension in policy debates (freedom of choice of the individual versus benefit to the community of centralized decision making) and the debates often are unresolveable as individuals will weight those two aspects differently or disagree passionately about the benefit to the community of the centralized decision that is made. There is some of that in this thread.
I think there is a tension between "people make their choices about safety" and the effect that choice could have on the HPDE industry. It's not an uncommon tension in policy debates (freedom of choice of the individual versus benefit to the community of centralized decision making) and the debates often are unresolveable as individuals will weight those two aspects differently or disagree passionately about the benefit to the community of the centralized decision that is made. There is some of that in this thread.
02-18-2017, 10:31 AM
#95
Registered User
Since we are talking about fire risk in this thread... Many people don't buy fire suits, because of... You guessed it... Cost...
Was searching eBay and there are tons of used nascar fire suits from drivers and pit crews for sale for $200-400. Many used once. Come with lots of neat badges from sponsors...
Any reason not to get a used suit??? These things don't expire, do they?
Of course going to a beginners hpde in a race suit covered in sponsors emblems may lead to some confusion and assumptions about the type of person you are
...
Was searching eBay and there are tons of used nascar fire suits from drivers and pit crews for sale for $200-400. Many used once. Come with lots of neat badges from sponsors...
Any reason not to get a used suit??? These things don't expire, do they?
Of course going to a beginners hpde in a race suit covered in sponsors emblems may lead to some confusion and assumptions about the type of person you are
...
02-18-2017, 10:33 AM
#96
I'm not understanding your rebuttal since I am talking about something which has not happened, and God willing, will never happen. Accordingly, I can't provide you with an example specific to motorsports. I also hope I can never point to an incident and say "see, I was right!" That would be horrible.
The analogy I used in my previous post, based on personal experience in my own industry, coupled with knowledge I gained as an executive for a large insurance underwriter, properly expressed my concern and how DE and track events could be affected. I've also had a few conversations with PCA about liability and insurance so I understand a little why certain rules are in place. I'm no "track day insurance expert" but I think I have an understanding.
Additionally, I've been participating in DE events for ten years now and this is my third year of PCA club racing. This is very limited experience compared to some of the august company we enjoy here on RL. But in that short amount of time I have seen a fair share of cars destroyed.
I've been at the track where people have been injured but fortunately, and I do believe because people are diligent about safety, no one has been seriously injured. But, I've also witnessed a few incidents and thought that there must have been Divine Providence for that person not to have been seriously injured or killed.
Again, what I am advocating is for everyone to push for ways to make our sport safer so that we can protect its participants, and also protect the financial feasibility of the sport. I'm not looking to turn the sport into a regulatory nightmare because that isn't what I believe in. We can be smart about it.
This is what I am trying to say so thank you for putting it more eloquently than I did.
Your last line about spending on money for performance versus safety is at the crux of my argument.
I'm not advocating a first time green driver show up in a race suit, 5 point safety harness, and all the other safety items racers are required to have. That would kill many DE events.
What I am advocating is that if you are hooked on driving at the track, and progress through the run groups and become a faster driver, you should be required to add some certain levels of safety gear. If you are spending thousands a year on tires, maintenance, and performance upgrades, it is ridiculous if you don't start upgrading your safety gear.
Perhaps mandating additional safety gear will never happen. I'm sure some drivers out west, with their miles of runoff, scoff at these suggestions. I just think that as cars become more powerful, and thankfully, safer, we should continue to reevaluate our safety procedures. If you love this sport I can't imagine disagreeing with that statement.
The analogy I used in my previous post, based on personal experience in my own industry, coupled with knowledge I gained as an executive for a large insurance underwriter, properly expressed my concern and how DE and track events could be affected. I've also had a few conversations with PCA about liability and insurance so I understand a little why certain rules are in place. I'm no "track day insurance expert" but I think I have an understanding.
Additionally, I've been participating in DE events for ten years now and this is my third year of PCA club racing. This is very limited experience compared to some of the august company we enjoy here on RL. But in that short amount of time I have seen a fair share of cars destroyed.
I've been at the track where people have been injured but fortunately, and I do believe because people are diligent about safety, no one has been seriously injured. But, I've also witnessed a few incidents and thought that there must have been Divine Providence for that person not to have been seriously injured or killed.
Again, what I am advocating is for everyone to push for ways to make our sport safer so that we can protect its participants, and also protect the financial feasibility of the sport. I'm not looking to turn the sport into a regulatory nightmare because that isn't what I believe in. We can be smart about it.
This is what I am trying to say so thank you for putting it more eloquently than I did.
Your last line about spending on money for performance versus safety is at the crux of my argument.
I'm not advocating a first time green driver show up in a race suit, 5 point safety harness, and all the other safety items racers are required to have. That would kill many DE events.
What I am advocating is that if you are hooked on driving at the track, and progress through the run groups and become a faster driver, you should be required to add some certain levels of safety gear. If you are spending thousands a year on tires, maintenance, and performance upgrades, it is ridiculous if you don't start upgrading your safety gear.
Perhaps mandating additional safety gear will never happen. I'm sure some drivers out west, with their miles of runoff, scoff at these suggestions. I just think that as cars become more powerful, and thankfully, safer, we should continue to reevaluate our safety procedures. If you love this sport I can't imagine disagreeing with that statement.
I remember reading about PCA trying to standardize labeling of groups to make it easy to transition between events at different regions; be it color, number, or what not. The result was that most were in favor as long as their system was the set standard.
No flame, you claim to be a liberal but yet your arguments on this subject don't show it. You also base your arguments about your industry experience. Again, one industry isn't necessarily the same as another. Case in point would be the transportation industry. While far fetched cars, planes and trains are all transportation mediums. Would you therefore advocate the same safety measures for all?
This is what I meant with elitisim in my earlier post which you kind of scoffed at. A small number/group based on their own experience wants to make a determination for the vast majority.
Disclaimer
I have installed additional safety measures in my car.
Last edited by ExMB; 02-18-2017 at 10:48 AM.
02-18-2017, 11:24 AM
#97
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You address a point about areas where these events are being held. You also admit that your area, your tracks might be different compared to the tracks out west. Therefore no one should be covered under a blanket scenario that you are in favor of. It should be up to the individual regions to enhance the minimum standard as they see fit. It shouldn't be left to a few to make that determination for all.
I remember reading about PCA trying to standardize labeling of groups to make it easy to transition between events at different regions; be it color, number, or what not. The result was that most were in favor as long as their system was the set standard.
No flame, you claim to be a liberal but yet your arguments on this subject don't show it. You also base your arguments about your industry experience. Again, one industry isn't necessarily the same as another. Case in point would be the transportation industry. While far fetched cars, planes and trains are all transportation mediums. Would you therefore advocate the same safety measures for all?
This is what I meant with elitisim in my earlier post which you kind of scoffed at. A small number/group based on their own experience wants to make a determination for the vast majority.
Disclaimer
I have installed additional safety measures in my car.
I remember reading about PCA trying to standardize labeling of groups to make it easy to transition between events at different regions; be it color, number, or what not. The result was that most were in favor as long as their system was the set standard.
No flame, you claim to be a liberal but yet your arguments on this subject don't show it. You also base your arguments about your industry experience. Again, one industry isn't necessarily the same as another. Case in point would be the transportation industry. While far fetched cars, planes and trains are all transportation mediums. Would you therefore advocate the same safety measures for all?
This is what I meant with elitisim in my earlier post which you kind of scoffed at. A small number/group based on their own experience wants to make a determination for the vast majority.
Disclaimer
I have installed additional safety measures in my car.
Firstly, you are pushing an extreme narrative of what I am saying. I'm in favor, on a certain level, of regions figuring out what works best for them. As noted, there are different levels of risk depending on the types of track you drive. Admittedly, just about every track I drive at does not have the kind of runoff some out west enjoy. The type of safety equipment required should take into account the risk.
Further on that point, I think it is best for each region to figure out promotions on their own. The region I belong to, CVR, is known for being rigorous in its training and promotion. I like that because it keeps me safe and lets me know who I am driving next to. I drove with another region a few years ago while I was white (HPDE 3) and they asked me to instruct! Now that I am completing my PCA instructor training I realize how dangerous of a request that was.
Lastly, my analogy to my own industry is relevant because insurance works the same way no matter what you are insuring. Premiums are relative to the risk being insured and the amount of the possible loss. All it took was one year of heavy losses to change the insurance model and force many companies out of business.
Here's the bottom line, this is a good debate and I don't pretend to have all the answers. In the spirit of many Rennlist threads I am giving my opinion. Some may agree, some may not. All I'm trying to do is start a conversation and we can see where it goes.
02-18-2017, 11:43 AM
#98
Rennlist Member
I live "Out West". Can't say that my local tracks (High Plains, Pike Peak Int'l Raceway and Pueblo Motorsports Park) have acres of run off. There are plenty of corners at all of them where an off will result in serious damage to the car and driver.
The last several years at High Plains we've had a fatality and several serious accidents. Two that I can think of that happened in street cars with no driver protection other than helmets.
I agree that some kind of additional safety equipment would be a good idea as the driver climbs the ranks. One of the largest issues is that most of the HPDE participants are doing it in their primary transportation/family truckster.
It's not feasible to add rollbar/cage, fixed back seats, 5-6 point harnesses in a daily driven car, particularly one where the back seat needs to hold people/children during the week.
That would then force people to buy a track car and probably kill off the HPDE program. I'm not sure of the answer here...
The last several years at High Plains we've had a fatality and several serious accidents. Two that I can think of that happened in street cars with no driver protection other than helmets.
I agree that some kind of additional safety equipment would be a good idea as the driver climbs the ranks. One of the largest issues is that most of the HPDE participants are doing it in their primary transportation/family truckster.
It's not feasible to add rollbar/cage, fixed back seats, 5-6 point harnesses in a daily driven car, particularly one where the back seat needs to hold people/children during the week.
That would then force people to buy a track car and probably kill off the HPDE program. I'm not sure of the answer here...
02-18-2017, 12:09 PM
#99
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IMO, the minimum safety standards for DE in general should be set such that someone would need to be very uninformed, misinformed, or foolish if they wanted to willingly fall below those standards. Examples here are wearing a helmet, reasonable tech of the car, use of flaggers with standardized flag meanings, etc.
Organizations should be free to go beyond those minimum standards as they think appropriate for their program, and again safety should viewed from a systems perspective, considering both human and physical factors and their interactions. As noted in this thread, 'safety culture' is at the foundation of such a system, and naturally leads to implementation of best practices. From a safety standpoint, the best organizations tend to be those who take safety seriously and have a lot of experience.
Individuals should further be free to go beyond the minimum standard of the organizations they drive with, according to their risk tolerance, financial considerations, and other factors specific to them, such as their car, how they drive, how often they go to the track, etc.
Where I think there's significant room and potential for improvement across these levels is in people being properly informed about safety, so that they can make informed decisions. Solid information is available, but I've found that there's a reluctance to discuss safety because we go to the track to have fun, and frankly talking about and paying attention to safety can diminish that fun. When I talked about the importance of using a HANS (cost of one or two tires, and unlike tires it lasts many years) if using harnesses, in order to prevent death due to basal skull fracture, some people literally complained to CIs that I was scaring them too much, though eventually some of them did buy a HANS and thanked me for scaring them.
Organizations should be free to go beyond those minimum standards as they think appropriate for their program, and again safety should viewed from a systems perspective, considering both human and physical factors and their interactions. As noted in this thread, 'safety culture' is at the foundation of such a system, and naturally leads to implementation of best practices. From a safety standpoint, the best organizations tend to be those who take safety seriously and have a lot of experience.
Individuals should further be free to go beyond the minimum standard of the organizations they drive with, according to their risk tolerance, financial considerations, and other factors specific to them, such as their car, how they drive, how often they go to the track, etc.
Where I think there's significant room and potential for improvement across these levels is in people being properly informed about safety, so that they can make informed decisions. Solid information is available, but I've found that there's a reluctance to discuss safety because we go to the track to have fun, and frankly talking about and paying attention to safety can diminish that fun. When I talked about the importance of using a HANS (cost of one or two tires, and unlike tires it lasts many years) if using harnesses, in order to prevent death due to basal skull fracture, some people literally complained to CIs that I was scaring them too much, though eventually some of them did buy a HANS and thanked me for scaring them.
02-19-2017, 07:32 AM
#100
Focusing exclusively on advanced run group participants here:
I think there is a tension between "people make their choices about safety" and the effect that choice could have on the HPDE industry. It's not an uncommon tension in policy debates (freedom of choice of the individual versus benefit to the community of centralized decision making) and the debates often are unresolveable as individuals will weight those two aspects differently or disagree passionately about the benefit to the community of the centralized decision that is made. There is some of that in this thread.
I think there is a tension between "people make their choices about safety" and the effect that choice could have on the HPDE industry. It's not an uncommon tension in policy debates (freedom of choice of the individual versus benefit to the community of centralized decision making) and the debates often are unresolveable as individuals will weight those two aspects differently or disagree passionately about the benefit to the community of the centralized decision that is made. There is some of that in this thread.
I'm not understanding your rebuttal since I am talking about something which has not happened, and God willing, will never happen. Accordingly, I can't provide you with an example specific to motorsports. I also hope I can never point to an incident and say "see, I was right!" That would be horrible.
Do I think wearing a race suit is a good idea? Yes! Do I think we should mandate it for everyone (even if just in advanced groups)? No. Not all of us have race cars with cool shirt & balaclava, etc. Doing DEs in 95 degrees wearing a racing suit without cool shirt would be torturous. It is also likely to be dangerous due to overheating, dehydration, mental fatigue, loss of concentration, etc.
And what if some of us can't really afford or don't want to buy a $2,000++ Formula 1 suit? As you know, cheap suits are exponentially hotter. And where does it stop? Require full cages and race seats in all advanced group cars? It is obviously much safer to do DEs in fully caged cars. But not all of us have the luxury of having - or want to have - a fully caged race car that's not even street legal. I submit that requiring race suits, full cages, racing seats, etc., are much more likely to kill off HPDE than any lawsuit.
Thousands of people have been doing DEs in advanced and instructor groups for decades without wearing race suits. What's the percentage per track day of dying in a fire or suffering severe burns due to wearing cotton vs. race suits? I'm sure the likelihood is very, very low. And we still want to require it? Remember, there's already a significant shortage of qualified instructors. Who's going to teach the newbies if we lose even more instructors?
Luigi, I'm not trying to argue with you.
Just voicing my opinion about the other side of the coin, and I do have a race car. But just because I have a race car doesn't mean that I advocate mandating cages, racing suits, etc., for all. Even if it's just for everyone in advanced groups. I believe that doing so will push a significant percentage of people out of the sport. I fully agree that safety items are very good ideas. But making them mandatory for everyone? I don't know.....
02-19-2017, 08:24 AM
#101
Rennlist Member
I think most people should be caged. But I'm just very cynical about humanity these days.
02-19-2017, 09:12 AM
#102
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by Coochas
I think most people should be caged. But I'm just very cynical about humanity these days.
02-19-2017, 10:12 AM
#103
Rennlist Member
02-19-2017, 10:19 AM
#104
Three Wheelin'
Since we are talking about fire risk in this thread... Many people don't buy fire suits, because of... You guessed it... Cost...
Was searching eBay and there are tons of used nascar fire suits from drivers and pit crews for sale for $200-400. Many used once. Come with lots of neat badges from sponsors...
Any reason not to get a used suit??? These things don't expire, do they?
Of course going to a beginners hpde in a race suit covered in sponsors emblems may lead to some confusion and assumptions about the type of person you are...
Was searching eBay and there are tons of used nascar fire suits from drivers and pit crews for sale for $200-400. Many used once. Come with lots of neat badges from sponsors...
Any reason not to get a used suit??? These things don't expire, do they?
Of course going to a beginners hpde in a race suit covered in sponsors emblems may lead to some confusion and assumptions about the type of person you are
...Yep. It's interesting that people skimp on safety equipment that costs less than a set of tires. It's also interesting that some choose not to wear the safety equipment that they already own while participating DE events, because those events are "safer." I do understand the mindset, but I resist thinking that way and wear everything every time I'm on the track. The likelihood of an incident may be lower, but if I hit something hard or God forbid have a fire, I'd feel pretty stupid to not have my safety equipment on ...
02-19-2017, 11:25 AM
#105
And that would be what? Some may not know that it is safety equipment so you may want to expand and explain what you mean.
