A training plan?
12-13-2016 | 02:44 PM
#16
Drifting
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,242
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From: Merrick, Long Island NY (Jeff)
This is where I am right now, and I am loving my decision to go that route. The learning in this car is tremendous. I tried to follow some SPB racers in a DE at Summit and was unable. I have my work cut out for me but the journey is a blast
12-13-2016 | 02:59 PM
#17
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From: All Ate Up With Motor
I think there are two more crucial factors in choosing a coach, regardless of their methodologies or techniques:
Personal compatibility and ease of mutual communication
Someone may be a fantastic driver and have the most thoroughly analytical approach on the planet, but if they're an ******* and/or talk down to a client and/or seem more interested in $$ than what is truly in the client's best interest and/or unable to articulate how to close the gap between their own performance and the client's, in language that resonates 100% with the client's style and personality, it will be a very expensive failure.
Getting along and having simpatico personalities and dialogue are the basic keys to making the learning experience relatively quick and successful.
Personal compatibility and ease of mutual communication
Someone may be a fantastic driver and have the most thoroughly analytical approach on the planet, but if they're an ******* and/or talk down to a client and/or seem more interested in $$ than what is truly in the client's best interest and/or unable to articulate how to close the gap between their own performance and the client's, in language that resonates 100% with the client's style and personality, it will be a very expensive failure.
Getting along and having simpatico personalities and dialogue are the basic keys to making the learning experience relatively quick and successful.
12-13-2016 | 03:25 PM
#18
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I may not be as verbose or voluble as some in this thread, but there has certainly been some great advice, especially from fleadh and hf1. Those are two guys who had made the commitment, though in slightly different way to become students of the sport.
One thing not really mentioned is that self coaching is very hard! You have to become a student of driving and self improvement, which means you have to learn the physical and mental side of driving, along with video and data analysis. If you can do that and objectively look at your data, you have the tools to improve. After that, it's executing.
For track plans, I always approach the day with a plan of what I'm doing. My track sheets have a mini review and 3 things to work on that session. They may be as specific as a braking technique in one corner or as global as "eyes up." The important thing is to identify areas of improvement and then work on them. Very often, it's different things at different tracks.
One thing not really mentioned is that self coaching is very hard! You have to become a student of driving and self improvement, which means you have to learn the physical and mental side of driving, along with video and data analysis. If you can do that and objectively look at your data, you have the tools to improve. After that, it's executing.
For track plans, I always approach the day with a plan of what I'm doing. My track sheets have a mini review and 3 things to work on that session. They may be as specific as a braking technique in one corner or as global as "eyes up." The important thing is to identify areas of improvement and then work on them. Very often, it's different things at different tracks.
12-13-2016 | 03:25 PM
#19
Burning Brakes
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 922
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From: Redwood City, California
You don't have to drop $250k to spend a year practicing and getting coached in a Cup, with some local races thrown in.
-mike
12-13-2016 | 05:15 PM
#20
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From: New England
Originally Posted by fleadh
Who said he should do a season in any series in the Cup? The 991 Cup isn't 2x the cost to operate as a 997 Cup, it's about the same actually. Maybe a little less as the gearbox is more reliable and electronic protection from overrevs/bad downshifts.
You don't have to drop $250k to spend a year practicing and getting coached in a Cup, with some local races thrown in.
-mike
You don't have to drop $250k to spend a year practicing and getting coached in a Cup, with some local races thrown in.
-mike
Racing or not, guys I've met that are quick started in slow cars and learned to not make mistakes.
Im sure you can do the same in a cup - just probably not as time or cost efficient as doing it in a well supported spec club racing car of your choosing.
I went from DE'ing a GT3 to racing slower spec cars and in a year learned 10x more than the 3 years of DE had
12-13-2016 | 06:25 PM
#21
Race Car
Joined: Apr 2005
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From: With A Manual Transmission
blah blah blah. Analysis paralysis.
Just find the guy in a similar car that is faster than you and (try to) follow him around the track. Forget all the technical BS about turn in, coasting, apex, whatever. Just get your nose on his *** and hang on. Close as you can. So close you cannot see the track, only his car.
You will be amazed at what you and your car can do. Seriously. You will find yourself at the edge (or over it) of adhesion all over the place. What a thrill. Your adrenaline will shoot through the roof. You'll get sweaty and out of breath. You'll be alive. And then you will want to do it again. And again.
Just find the guy in a similar car that is faster than you and (try to) follow him around the track. Forget all the technical BS about turn in, coasting, apex, whatever. Just get your nose on his *** and hang on. Close as you can. So close you cannot see the track, only his car.
You will be amazed at what you and your car can do. Seriously. You will find yourself at the edge (or over it) of adhesion all over the place. What a thrill. Your adrenaline will shoot through the roof. You'll get sweaty and out of breath. You'll be alive. And then you will want to do it again. And again.
If you can ride with someone, even if slower, but well driven and FEEL the track, that's an additional boost to learning. More likely when DE's are present.
Lastly, you have to figure out what method works best for YOUR car and setup. The setup you arrive with may not be the best one. A few platform/sway/**** changes may be necessary (if allowed). Your end result will not always exactly resemble what you hear from others (and you will get varying opinions/approaches, even from different coaches). For this you have to have a very in depth knowledge of your cars limits that's learned at your home track and then applied to new tracks.
A bunch of tips before driving is very useful, but correction after driving is more useful IMO. If you have a coach (particularly one who is remote), make sure they are available for data analysis right after sessions. What you interpret and apply will still likely need some tweaking. Plus you may need some setup advice once you convey what you feel.
12-13-2016 | 06:42 PM
#22
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From: West Vancouver and San Francisco
I like your analytical approach MaxLTV! Here's a couple thoughts from someone who also started in street cars and focused on becoming a better driver, efficiently (I hate wasting time!):
* It looks like you have a street/track car -- move to a dedicated race car. The benefits of this are exponential; increased safety as you begin to push your limits, much more reliability and ease of comparing data between different drivers/cars/platforms and an much larger existing knowledge set of what that particular platform should be doing. Even if you aren't interested in "racing" rite now, you will be once you start comparing yourself to fast guys. Get a Cup, even a 997 if budget doesn't allow a 991.
* Since you're in the SF Bay Area, reach out to Johannes van Overbeek (ProCoach as well, but it might be easier to start with someone who's local!). He's very analytical as well and if you can articulate what your goals are, he can give you a lot of guidance on how to get there, as well as doing normal fast-guy coaching type stuff in person. He's been coaching me since I started driving and is probably the only reason I stuck with it and made good progress If you want to get ahold of him send me a PM and I'll connect you. Also, if you find yourself around RWC I'd be happy to meet up for a beer and flap some gums about driving and racing.
* Be truthful with yourself on how much time you can dedicate to your driving/racing. It's easy to start strong and throw a lot of good money at it.. then find you don't have the time to commit. Again, this is where a good coach like Mr. Krause or JvO can be invaluable because of their experience helping others.
* Seriously, move to a race car. I'm not trying to scare you, but if you want to make big improvements you need to move on from the street car. If you don't want to deal with trailering/wrenching/loading/etc there's plenty of folks in the Bay Area who can run your car properly and take care of all that stuff for not *too* much money, especially when you look at it from a personal time perspective. JWE and Flying Lizard (based out of Sonoma!) both have very good customer Porsche programs and are local. I've worked with both very closely over the years and would recommend them whole heartedly.
-mike
* It looks like you have a street/track car -- move to a dedicated race car. The benefits of this are exponential; increased safety as you begin to push your limits, much more reliability and ease of comparing data between different drivers/cars/platforms and an much larger existing knowledge set of what that particular platform should be doing. Even if you aren't interested in "racing" rite now, you will be once you start comparing yourself to fast guys. Get a Cup, even a 997 if budget doesn't allow a 991.
* Since you're in the SF Bay Area, reach out to Johannes van Overbeek (ProCoach as well, but it might be easier to start with someone who's local!). He's very analytical as well and if you can articulate what your goals are, he can give you a lot of guidance on how to get there, as well as doing normal fast-guy coaching type stuff in person. He's been coaching me since I started driving and is probably the only reason I stuck with it and made good progress If you want to get ahold of him send me a PM and I'll connect you. Also, if you find yourself around RWC I'd be happy to meet up for a beer and flap some gums about driving and racing.
* Be truthful with yourself on how much time you can dedicate to your driving/racing. It's easy to start strong and throw a lot of good money at it.. then find you don't have the time to commit. Again, this is where a good coach like Mr. Krause or JvO can be invaluable because of their experience helping others.
* Seriously, move to a race car. I'm not trying to scare you, but if you want to make big improvements you need to move on from the street car. If you don't want to deal with trailering/wrenching/loading/etc there's plenty of folks in the Bay Area who can run your car properly and take care of all that stuff for not *too* much money, especially when you look at it from a personal time perspective. JWE and Flying Lizard (based out of Sonoma!) both have very good customer Porsche programs and are local. I've worked with both very closely over the years and would recommend them whole heartedly.
-mike
I'll probably go with something a little slower and cheaper to run than a GT3 Cup car - GT4 CS seems to be a good option or something similar. I cannot commit to a racing calendar until 2018 but I should be able to make time in 2017 to really prepare for it.
From the discussion, it seems that I do need a coach who would focus on me as a driver first, and then after observing how a good coach does what he/she does, self-coach in addition to that.
12-13-2016 | 07:18 PM
#23
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From: West Vancouver and San Francisco
blah blah blah. Analysis paralysis.
Just find the guy in a similar car that is faster than you and (try to) follow him around the track. Forget all the technical BS about turn in, coasting, apex, whatever. Just get your nose on his *** and hang on. Close as you can. So close you cannot see the track, only his car.
You will be amazed at what you and your car can do. Seriously. You will find yourself at the edge (or over it) of adhesion all over the place. What a thrill. Your adrenaline will shoot through the roof. You'll get sweaty and out of breath. You'll be alive. And then you will want to do it again. And again.
Just find the guy in a similar car that is faster than you and (try to) follow him around the track. Forget all the technical BS about turn in, coasting, apex, whatever. Just get your nose on his *** and hang on. Close as you can. So close you cannot see the track, only his car.
You will be amazed at what you and your car can do. Seriously. You will find yourself at the edge (or over it) of adhesion all over the place. What a thrill. Your adrenaline will shoot through the roof. You'll get sweaty and out of breath. You'll be alive. And then you will want to do it again. And again.
But it's tempting to sometimes be the first one of the cohort to reach a higher pace.
12-13-2016 | 08:04 PM
#24
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From: Edmond, OK
Is this in your 991 GT3? No offense, but there are a lot of things that car does for you that you don't even know. It's really easy to fool yourself in to thinking you are really making progress only to find out your rear pads are wearing faster than your fronts. And if you are on street tires, you have not even yet begun to explore the limits of grip.
Checkout this video. I ran across it while studying TWS this week. It's just a club racer around here, not a pro, that looks to have worked pretty hard at developing his skills. Just fast forward to the middle and watch his hands working in the corners to catch the rear as moves from slip to slide. Watch his feet as he moves between left and right foot braking. All of the track cars mentioned above will give you a much better opportunity to develop these skills and greatly progress your driving.
Checkout this video. I ran across it while studying TWS this week. It's just a club racer around here, not a pro, that looks to have worked pretty hard at developing his skills. Just fast forward to the middle and watch his hands working in the corners to catch the rear as moves from slip to slide. Watch his feet as he moves between left and right foot braking. All of the track cars mentioned above will give you a much better opportunity to develop these skills and greatly progress your driving.
Last edited by Slakker; 12-14-2016 at 12:11 AM.
12-13-2016 | 08:41 PM
#25
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From: San Martin, CA
12-13-2016 | 08:51 PM
#26
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And the best coaches will spend as much time sharing a methodology for how best to coach yourself as they will helping you develop a plan to go quicker, smarter...
I have a lot of experience with and like the GT4 CS as a dedicated platform to hone skills...
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www.peterkrause.net
www.gofasternow.com
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Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
12-14-2016 | 12:45 AM
#27
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From: West Vancouver and San Francisco
Is this in your 991 GT3? No offense, but there are a lot of things that car does for you that you don't even know. It's really easy to fool yourself in to thinking you are really making progress only to find out your rear pads are wearing faster than your fronts. And if you are on street tires, you have not even yet begun to explore the limits of grip.
I'm not sure about the other points, though.
First, I actually know what the car does for me because all brake and throttle interventions are logged, so I can later see precisely if and when the safety net kicks in. But I drive with all nannies off or TC-only (no stability control) much of the time, even in pouring rain. One set of rear pads outlasts 4-5 sets of fronts. GT3 is not the best car to learn in, but it's pretty good.
Also, I disagree on tires. It does not take slicks to learn how to drive. On street tires, one can get to the limits of grip and beyond just the same, and it's just that the limits are lower. But all the same principles apply just as much. I drove many cars on full range of tires (mine, plus I have a lot of car friends who let me drive theirs plus student cars while instructing) and can compare a bit. I choose to drive on street tires (MSPC2 or RE71R) now because it's cheaper and more convenient, and I'm not chasing prices or lap times. But it's actually harder to manage the HP and mass of the SAME car but with less grip and less aero. Of course, driving on slicks and driving high aero cars also requires additional skills, but that does not take away from the ability to learn most of what there is to learn on street tires.
If a coach ever tells me that slicks are the most important thing I need to progress further, I'll be very happy because it means I mastered almost everything there is to driving
.
Last edited by MaxLTV; 12-14-2016 at 01:10 AM.
12-14-2016 | 12:54 AM
#28
Race Car
Joined: Oct 2010
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From: San Martin, CA
"fast" = near the limit of the car's potential.
12-14-2016 | 01:06 AM
#29
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What I mean is slightly different. Imagine driving the same car you have but on a damp track or on tires that are way past their prime. It's slightly harder, isn't it? The corners that were "bent straights" before become actual corners, the imaginary egg between the right foot and the throttle pedal becomes slightly more fragile and so on.
12-14-2016 | 01:16 AM
#30
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From: San Martin, CA
I absolutely agree with that (but don't tell my spec miata racer friends)
What I mean is slightly different. Imagine driving the same car you have but on a damp track or on tires that are way past their prime. It's slightly harder, isn't it? The corners that were "bent straights" before become actual corners, the imaginary egg between the right foot and the throttle pedal becomes slightly more fragile and so on.
What I mean is slightly different. Imagine driving the same car you have but on a damp track or on tires that are way past their prime. It's slightly harder, isn't it? The corners that were "bent straights" before become actual corners, the imaginary egg between the right foot and the throttle pedal becomes slightly more fragile and so on.
Rain is a whole different ball game.