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Old 09-25-2016, 06:01 PM   #46
Gofishracing
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Yes . challenging I word it . but Empire Region wonderful people & I simply love the sound of the cars. Working pit out at Lime Rock with Joe & was hypnotic. It's simple. They are all on top of their world but everyone at the track starts as a novice. I suggest they listen to some of my suggestions or it could be an expensive afternoon. I'll post some recent photos. I really enjoy FCA.
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Old 09-26-2016, 10:09 AM   #47
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I wasn't going to chime in, but as it all seems very good natured, I'll add two of mine that come to mind.

1. was at a charity event at Pocono. lots and lots of very fancy cars (ferrari Lambo etc etc). I had a paying client who I was handling, and one of the higher ups at the event asked me to take his wife (or might have been girl friend I never found out for sure) for one session only. she'd never been on track before. and the guy's car was an Audi R8. oh yeah, and she didn't drive stick! (I'm not making this up!!). I tried to talk him out of it; nope -- she'll be ok he said. just keep her safe and make sure she has fun. soooooo -- I literally shifted for her, from the passenger seat, with my left hand; leaving the pits, i'd yell SHIFT (we had discussed that when I yelled that, that meant gas off clutch in) and I'd move the shifter into the proper gear and she'd let the clutch out and squeeeeeze the gas. I tried to use 3rd the entire session and we minimized shifting as much as possible. managed to get around and teach her the very basics of straight line braking, turn in, track out, and most importantly gently squeezing the throttle. all this while exotics zoomed past us and I was giving the passing signals and telling her where to be on the track. one of the most stressful right seat experiences of my life lol. got the car back in one piece and I made sure I was no where to be found afterwards, in case she asked to go out again hahaha.

2. this was a LONG time ago. at Mid Ohio at a PCA event volunteering. I got given a 20 year old hot shot kid in a heavily modded E30 street/race car. (not trailered. his only car. but caged and stripped and plated). kid wanted nothing to do with me; kept saying he should have been in Advanced and didn't need an Instructor. I tried to settle him down and got to work on his line, vision, hands, etc etc. he was one of those that wouldn't listen. he knew everything. he even mentioned that he 'was probably faster than me!'. this went on for 3 sessions. 4th and final session of the day was no different; the main point of contention at that time was that I'd be SCREAMING for him to lightly brake entering T1 to get the weight on the front tires and to set the car and then bend it into the turn. he'd been arguing and arguing constantly that he could take it 'flat out'. over and over and over this went on. finally (and i know this was dumb; but i'd really had f'ing enough of this little sh@!) I made sure my belts were very tight, and I crossed my arms and decided I was gonna shut up and just let him drive. at this point there were no other cars near us. sure enough we go down the front straight and I say absolutely nothing and he (gotta give him some cred; he wasn't a chicken lol) keeps it flat (I never said 'brake!!!!!'). car of course goes way wide of apex; kid never lifts. just cranks in more steering which doesnt help. i lean back and put my head on the back of the race seat and cross legs and hands. car goes off track sideways into dirt; up on two wheels about 45 degrees (joey chitwood style!!!) and I was sure we were going to barrel roll it. kid did have some skills (and luck!) though. he turned into it and we went on 2 wheels for a while and then it laid back down hard on all 4 and we bounced and then spun and stopped (huge cloud of dust and dirt in the car). I waited about 10 secs and said ' I guess it can't go through there flat out huh?'. and that was it! got it restarted, drove back to the pits. he spent about 2 hrs cleaning it up and checking it over.

the next day he behaved like a little angel. lol. listened and did everything I told him. I think he knew he was lucky not to have written off his pride and joy (and only car).

I'm too old to act like that now haha. but that story I'll never forget!
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Old 09-26-2016, 11:50 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d15b7 View Post
2. this was a LONG time ago. at Mid Ohio at a PCA event volunteering. I got given a 20 year old hot shot kid in a heavily modded E30 street/race car. (not trailered. his only car. but caged and stripped and plated). kid wanted nothing to do with me; kept saying he should have been in Advanced and didn't need an Instructor. I tried to settle him down and got to work on his line, vision, hands, etc etc. he was one of those that wouldn't listen. he knew everything. he even mentioned that he 'was probably faster than me!'. this went on for 3 sessions. 4th and final session of the day was no different; the main point of contention at that time was that I'd be SCREAMING for him to lightly brake entering T1 to get the weight on the front tires and to set the car and then bend it into the turn. he'd been arguing and arguing constantly that he could take it 'flat out'. over and over and over this went on. finally (and i know this was dumb; but i'd really had f'ing enough of this little sh@!) I made sure my belts were very tight, and I crossed my arms and decided I was gonna shut up and just let him drive. at this point there were no other cars near us. sure enough we go down the front straight and I say absolutely nothing and he (gotta give him some cred; he wasn't a chicken lol) keeps it flat (I never said 'brake!!!!!'). car of course goes way wide of apex; kid never lifts. just cranks in more steering which doesnt help. i lean back and put my head on the back of the race seat and cross legs and hands. car goes off track sideways into dirt; up on two wheels about 45 degrees (joey chitwood style!!!) and I was sure we were going to barrel roll it. kid did have some skills (and luck!) though. he turned into it and we went on 2 wheels for a while and then it laid back down hard on all 4 and we bounced and then spun and stopped (huge cloud of dust and dirt in the car). I waited about 10 secs and said ' I guess it can't go through there flat out huh?'. and that was it! got it restarted, drove back to the pits. he spent about 2 hrs cleaning it up and checking it over.

the next day he behaved like a little angel. lol. listened and did everything I told him. I think he knew he was lucky not to have written off his pride and joy (and only car).

I'm too old to act like that now haha. but that story I'll never forget!
Oh wow
I would never have gotten in the car with him again.
You are a saint.
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Old 09-26-2016, 05:53 PM   #49
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yes- I know someone who did the same with a young lady at Lime Rock. Jay would say shift and she would push in the clutch etc. TOO funny. Your other student sounds very familiar. Mine tried to power his way back on track- of course also spinning to the other side of the track. I'll never get in a car again numbered 777 . I remember one student who said " I have racing in my blood" One of the worst drivers I ever went out with. I was going to mention that other hobbies beckon .
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Old 09-26-2016, 08:03 PM   #50
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I've seen students turn their wrist bands inside out so they can run in another run group.! We make ours the same color both sides.. oops . wrong thread. I should be on worst students
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Old 09-27-2016, 01:58 AM   #51
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OK, as someone who has given some thought to instructing in the future...
Despite all of these wild / dangerous stories... how many of you would still
do it?

What worries me is the speed of some of these newer cars. There was a woman at out last track event on track for the first time in a brand new 991 GT3. That's way too much car to learn in but even a VW Golf R comes with close to 400hp.
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Old 09-27-2016, 07:56 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hella-Buggin' View Post
OK, as someone who has given some thought to instructing in the future...
Despite all of these wild / dangerous stories... how many of you would still
do it?

What worries me is the speed of some of these newer cars. There was a woman at out last track event on track for the first time in a brand new 991 GT3. That's way too much car to learn in but even a VW Golf R comes with close to 400hp.

It's beyond me how your average car enthusiast can truly learn the craft of performance driving in a car with 400 hp, nannies, and limits as high as a car like a 991 ...
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Old 09-27-2016, 10:49 AM   #53
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Golf R has 300 hp. Still not a small amount but much less than 400....
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Old 09-27-2016, 11:14 AM   #54
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these horror stories are few and far between. Maybe it's a phase but I still very much enjoy riding in the right seat providing help where I can.
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Old 09-27-2016, 12:22 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by stownsen914 View Post
It's beyond me how your average car enthusiast can truly learn the craft of performance driving in a car with 400 hp, nannies, and limits as high as a car like a 991 ...
Pretty simple really, speed limits for one and not allowing them to go faster until they are driving properly. A nanny going off at the beginner level is treated as a mistake. One way of being able to tell between car and driver is observing where they are catching other cars. In the corners good, in the straights only, bad. It requires a student that listens, if the student can't do that I'm outta' there.

That said, it is much harder to learn how to drive properly in a high horsepower car and the old saying is true, "it is more fun to drive a slow car fast". I had a student in a Turbo S last weekend in Blue turning a lap time within a second of what I was running in the E36 M3. The Turbo S laps were kind of boring, the M3 laps were a hoot.

-Mike
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Old 09-27-2016, 12:59 PM   #56
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This summer at Pitt Race...

After 5 sessions on track, my student was still struggling with the line. He didn't have the ability to remember the track layout, or anticipate upcoming corners. We reviewed the track map together, he rode right side in my car, and we reviewed video.

Two laps into our 6 session, entering a corner I said, "we are on the wrong line again. Where is the track going?' My student repled, "I don't know."

Ok, I am done.
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Old 09-27-2016, 01:58 PM   #57
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^^ When I first started out driving DEs, I was the guy who couldn't remember the track. I was like a goldfish; every lap was brand new to me. Hey, look at that! 3 minutes later Hey, look at that! (again). It took me 3-4 sessions to start recognizing each corner.

To remedy this, the next DE I was scheduled for, I studied laps on YouTube a week or 2 before the planned event and it made all the difference in the world. I knew EVERY corner before I ever actually drove it and had no learning curve like I had at the previous track.

I know some of you guys communicate w/your students prior to meeting them at the track. Tell them to watch the YouTube videos in a similarly equipped car so they can familiarize themselves with the track layout and it's visual cues as well as the common line around it.
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Old 09-27-2016, 03:06 PM   #58
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^^ When I first started out driving DEs, I was the guy who couldn't remember the track. I was like a goldfish; every lap was brand new to me. Hey, look at that! 3 minutes later Hey, look at that! (again). It took me 3-4 sessions to start recognizing each corner.

To remedy this, the next DE I was scheduled for, I studied laps on YouTube a week or 2 before the planned event and it made all the difference in the world. I knew EVERY corner before I ever actually drove it and had no learning curve like I had at the previous track.

I know some of you guys communicate w/your students prior to meeting them at the track. Tell them to watch the YouTube videos in a similarly equipped car so they can familiarize themselves with the track layout and it's visual cues as well as the common line around it.
iRacing takes it to a whole new level as if you find a car that turns a similar lap time to what your car would turn you can get the mechanics down of going through a lap before actually even being there. It's a really great tool in that regard. The Mustang is actually very closely matched to a 996 GT3 BTW in terms of outright pace.

If we get students assigned ahead of time I send them select Youtube videos to watch because there are more bad than good for most of the tracks. Ironically my brother's camera setup is better than mine so I send them to his page :-)
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Old 09-27-2016, 09:38 PM   #59
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To remedy this, the next DE I was scheduled for, I studied laps on YouTube a week or 2 before the planned event and it made all the difference in the world. I knew EVERY corner before I ever actually drove it and had no learning curve like I had at the previous track.
Before going to WGI for the Zone 1 event this year, my instructor sent me some video links. I did exactly as you did and it was a huge help. I had all the turns numbered and described in my head before I went.
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Old 09-28-2016, 11:39 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by TXE36 View Post
Pretty simple really, speed limits for one and not allowing them to go faster until they are driving properly. A nanny going off at the beginner level is treated as a mistake. One way of being able to tell between car and driver is observing where they are catching other cars. In the corners good, in the straights only, bad. It requires a student that listens, if the student can't do that I'm outta' there.

That said, it is much harder to learn how to drive properly in a high horsepower car and the old saying is true, "it is more fun to drive a slow car fast". I had a student in a Turbo S last weekend in Blue turning a lap time within a second of what I was running in the E36 M3. The Turbo S laps were kind of boring, the M3 laps were a hoot.

-Mike

My point wasn't that it's not possible to drive in a DE successfully with a new sports car with high limits. Of course that can be done. What I am questioning is a student's ability to truly exercise such a car and to push it near the limit. And that the absence of doing that limits one's ability to learn where the limits are, which I think is fundamental to learning how to drive consistently fast.
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