Difool

I think he meant to the track itself. Armco, etc. but how does that work in a declared value policy? Is there a separate provision, with limits?

RickBetterley

Looks like I'm an idiot.
Apologies for not reading more carefully.
Ironic...

LuigiVampa

To this point you really need two policies - one for one the track and one for off.

If you have track insurance and flip your trailer on the way to the event, or back up your GT4 into a light post, you are not covered.

Trailer, paddock, and storage insurance is relatively cheap.

DTMiller

+1

I have a Hagerty STP policy on my miata with a declared value of $5,000. My policy includes state minimum insurance so I can drive it to/from my mechanic up to like 1500 miles a year (or something similarly low, I don't remember exactly). I pay a whopping $250/year for that policy.

hf1

Hmm... If opentrack offers unlimited track coverage per year instead of coverage per day/event it should be expected that it will be predominantly patronized by heavy track users for whom this looks like a no-brainer deal. It will be interesting to see how the loss statistics pan out and whether this ends up being a viable business model in the long run.

Maybe the logic is that expensive ($100k+) cars are less likely to be heavily tracked, and they will still get this annual policy since no one else is offering policies for $100k+ cars?

Qwickrick

For me, I do over 15 events per year, so it will cost me $200-$300 per track day for $100000 of coverage.

the_vetman

Didn't want to hash it out over and over again but here it goes (I swear next time I'm gonna tell people to "do a search" )...

Ben and Jerod seem like good guys. The problem is with Aspen. Even though they're an A-rated insurance company, they typically deal with marine cargo insurance and are brand new to auto insurance. They just don't operate like other auto insurances do.

I made a claim in August for a pretty minor body work but didn't get my car back until after Thanksgiving. And, no, it wasn't because the repair took anywhere near that long. It was weeks and weeks and weeks of waiting on Aspen for an answer, something, anything. All this with checking in frequently for any updates. Can you imagine the frustration level?

Even after everything was finished and the body shop had a supplemental invoice to get approved, Aspen took nearly a week before we heard anything back. So another frustrating week down the drain without having my car.

To give you another example of how Aspen is not up to speed on auto insurances, a friend of mine also made a claim with OpenTrack last year. He said the "appraiser" that they sent out (through a 3rd party marine cargo company handling the claim for Aspen) was an old retired lady who had no idea what she was doing and said she was paid $50 to go out to the bodyshop and take some pictures. Does that sound like an efficient or accurate process to anyone?

I may try OpenTrack again in the future if Aspen can streamline and expedite their process, but no way in their current form. For comparison, Lockton and OnTrack insurances approve things in basically less than a day (vs. several weeks).

hf1

I've always been intrigued with self-insuring and with the math insurers use when calculating premiums. Assuming a $4k premium to insure a $100k car for a year of tracking, one ends up paying for one car every 25 years. If a tracker expects to total more than one car over 25 years, then it's a good deal for him. If on average insured trackers end up totaling more than one car over 25 years, then that's not a good deal for the insurer. So for the business model to make sense for the insurer, he must be assuming that the average (in the insured pool) is LESS than one totaled car every 25 years. If this is correct (big if), and if $100k is not a catastrophic loss for the tracker (not a big chunk of his net worth) then it would make sense for him to self-insure (become an insurer with a single client: himself). Just thinking outloud...

schaibaa

There are a few important things to factor in. First there is a 10% deductible so the first 10k of the claim is on the insured. Aside from that, I would estimate that the majority of claims are not for a total loss. My guess is the average is close to 40% of the policy value so in your example, th insurer would only pay 30k for that loss.

hf1

I was aware but tried to keep things simple for argument's sake. Let's just say that the total damage cost (after deductible) + business expenses must be less than $100k per customer over 25 years for the insurer to make a profit. If I had to make a bet, I'd estimate that total damage costs over 25 years would be higher than $100k for someone doing 15-20 events or 20-30 track days per year (500-750 days total) with a $100k car -- which is why I expect that the insured pool on an "unlimited days" annual policy would tend to be populated with such drivers (vs drivers doing 2-3 events per year).

Beantown Kman

While I follow your logic I don't think this is the way most people insuring their car(s) would look at this. In general, buying insurance coverage makes the most sense when there is a catastrophic loss that would be difficult or impossible to recover from without the insurance.

The folks at OpenTrack are targeting customers who own cars worth at least $75,000. Most of their customers are probably insuring cars in the $100K to $150K range. In your example using the $4K annual premium for a $100K car the question is not whether you will total the car more or less often than once every 25 years. The better question is if you total your $100K car, and you are self-insured, will you be ready, willing and able to write another $100K check to replace it? And if you're not, is that concern, on some level, affecting your driving performance?

When I consider the annual expenses of running and maintaining a Porsche track car at a high level, my prorated cost per track day is well over $1,000/day after I add up my travel expenses, consumables, service and repairs, event fees, coaching, etc. Adding another $200/day to insure my $100K track car for 20 track days per season feels like it's a fair price to buy a lot of peace of mind.

Edit: OpenTrack's deductible is only 5%, not 10%

AlD

Just to add a few thoughts

OpenTrack sounds interesting, and hopefully it turns out to be a good long-term player for them and their clients...

Many of us have used Lockton, likely mostly for "street cars doing DE", which their program seems to have grown on. FWIW Lockton also offers (actual) race and competition insurance, we had them present their program at Daytona during the ROAR this year. If I recall, it was $5K a weekend (or so), 10% deductible and max value of $100K....for IMSA-level racing.

There are a number of boutiques out there who will write race insurance, I have had zero experience but have known others who have had painful battles with claims.

One alternative, which is not for everyone, is the motorsports program AIG offers. It's part of their Private Client Group, and you need to have (all) your insurance with them (or, at least a good sized book of business). Having said that, they do write coverage up to $350,000+ for actual, professional racing coverage. The cost and deductibles is high, but several of us use them as it's less expensive than writing off a car. At that level, one can legit argue that if you can't afford to walk away from a pile of metal, but for some (including me) it's peace of mind.

A few interesting elements - 1) your premiums are at least in part based on your actual driving and racing track record, if you have professional coaching and professional team 2) they are great on claims service and 3) do an impressive job of working WITH the racing community to get smarter. It's a VERY boutique program, but if you want to insure a 991 Cup in PCA racing, a program like this might work. I'm biased, I've used them for years now and, unfortunately, it's paid for itself...

hf1

I think that our posts agree almost completely.

Manifold

This. Psychologically, I can live with writing a $5K insurance check each year for many years, plus another check less than $10K if I have an incident. I can't live with writing off a car worth more than $100K in one fell swoop, that would just be too painful. For many of us, peace of mind provided by insurance coverage is even more important than how the rational actuarial analysis comes out.