Alan Herod

I have seen that the Hoosiers are faster then anything else and I have seen many cars using them at DEs. While I am excited about the new tires, I have not seen data that indicates that they will be competitive in the longevity arena, only that they will be better then the old tires. I understand that they are faster then the MPSC, but the difference in lap times does not warrant the hassle of changing them all the time - every event, particularly if you are only doing DE. In fact I can't believe that club racers would spend $1000 weekend on tires just for bragging rights. Just my opinion though. I guess its not surprising when you consider the number of folk testing the scrutineers with outrageous engine mods - pistons, cams, heads... What's the point?

DJF1

I agree with you 100% on the MPSC's for DE's. I cannot find another tire that has the longetivity of the MPSC on the track. I had mine on since last November and did about 10 weekends on them ( including 2 club races). Now the rears are starting to let go while the fronts have some meat in them still... If I was doing just DE's there is no other tire I would look at.

However if you are racing a 2 second difference per lap which may mean the difference between a podium or the back of the pack is a big insentive to spend the money.The keyword here is Racing which means competition therefore yes you do really care of how competitive you are and you really want to win. Otherwise whats the point of competing? Especially with the inherit danger of trashing your car or even worse injuring yourself...While I agree with you that it is terrible that people do the outrageous mods they do, I feel that if winning or competing was not important then there would be no reason to race really... DE's would do just fine... and yes you cannot really understand the concept of spending $1000 a weekend unless you are racing ... Before racing I did not understand it either...now I do...

DJF1

One big lesson I learned the past racing weekend is how the car changes according to track conditions and how important is to monitor pressures and temps through out the day. One day we would have 32-34 Hot starting at 26-27 cold and the next we would have 35-36 starting the same cold! Not to mention different temps etc...The original set was shot when it went through all the grooving and became slick, till that time it was pretty consistent...
We had to mess with oversteer, understeer etc, playing with the sway bar upfront helped although as I discovered on my last run where I finally got comfortable with the track was that my setup was pushing like crazy where with Robert the car would be understeering at entry and oversteering at exit. I was told that the later behavior is kind of the norm when the car is setup good for you and you drive the doors off of it...
Also I have finally realized the value of left foot trailbraking into the corner which helps a lot the car to tuck the nose in and reduce the understeer. In general more weight up front would help to minimize it. I'm looking forward to running at my home track next year with a trick setup that my mechanic devised where I can have removable weights upfront essentially balancing better the car. At Putnam we got all the weight out in a hurry and I wish we had more time to play with it as I'm pretty convinced that weight upfront provides better handling.

Alan Herod

MPSC pressures - I am down to a starting pressure of 22/23 cold, maybe could go even lower. At that starting pressure they are working well within two laps. 26/27 cold put me close to 40 psi hot and the tires definitely do not work there. Although they slide quite predictably, just about everywhere. I have found best performance in the 31-32 range hot. Michelin rep suggested, I start with closer to 20 cold, and I am creeping down toward that goal.

Also, I am familiar with the racing bug, but I never took myself that seriously. I did fairly well in SCCA and am looking at that venue again but only on the regional level. And, if the Hoosiers pan out to have the expected longevity, I may try them. These projects all take time, and there is no rush on this schedule.

Dbltime

Alan, Alan, Alan, Wake up and smell the race fuel buddy! It has been way too long since you followed a pace car, heart pounding, brain running at speed, methodically planning your start. Nothing like it. You are racing the car in front of you and for that moment it is the most important thing in your life.

I agree that stock is stock and there is no satisfaction in winning a stock class with a cheater motor.

richard glickel.

Hi Bill, Ed, et al,

Not to change the subject, but here's a silly tire question from a non-racing/DE enthusiast.

I recently had my suspension switched from factory 930 (torsion bars, etc) to coil-overs, etc. I have been running Kumhos (I will not use Michelin under ANY circumstances due in no small part to the poor performance in cooler temps & damp surface conditions issue raised earlier), and have found the Kumhos quite slippery until they are really well-heated, and even then I continue to feel as if the rear end wants to let loose ... a feeling I rarely experienced before changing the suspension, I might add.

I'm wondering whether for my (DE) purposes, I'd be better off with the highest performing street tire I can find. After all, the F1 tires have been grooved for a couple of years now, so why should I run on modified "slicks". Basically, at my (low) skill level, I don't feel as though I stand to gain much from "race" tires.

Any thoughts?

Richard

Ed Newman

Any R compung tire will perform poorly until it is up to temperature. The Hoosiers are actually the worst on a damp track. The MPSC does quite well in the damp so long as there is not puddling water on the track. I would probably stick with Kuhmo victoracer or ecsta V700's until you start chunking them then move up to a MPSC or Hoosier then. The Kuhmo's are a great starter tire, but they will sefl desctruct once you start to drive them really hard. Keep in mind that F1 tires are still a full race tire and the grooves are like the grooves on a hoosier. They are there to help determine tread depth or for DOT approval, not for rain channeling.

GlenL

I think you'd gain a lot especially being "low" skilled.

I was doing some DE this Summer and using my yoko AVS ES100s in some sessions to preserve my Yoko A032R tires a bit longer. Learned a track on the cheapies and then brought out the real rubber. Trying them back-to-back vividly pointed out how much better a DOT competition tire is than street tires.

The Yoko A032Rs are considered to be at the low end of competition tires. They worked for me as I wanted more life and I believe I got the best value. As they're symmetrical, I could "flip" them a few times. I got like 5 DE weekends and 1500 travel miles out of a set. And they're not quite dead. Getting pretty hard, but not to the belts yet.

Here's my take on DOT race tires from what I can gather on-line and at the track (most to least):

Cost: ----- Grip: ----- Wear:
Mich ------ Hoosier -- Yoko
Hoosier --- Mich ----- Mich
Yoko ------ Kumho --- Kumho
Kumho ---- Yoko ----- Hoosier

(Trying to make a table...not easy)

Opinions guys?

My thoughts: Try some competition tires next year.

DJF1

Richard, dont be afraid of the MPSC's. They are a really great tire and most importantly they will perform for many many events which translates into huge savings. They are definately my choise of tire for DE events. Your milaege may vary so to speak regarding your impressions of them. You like the kumhos you will love the MPSC's. The fact that they take a lap or two to fully warm up means absolutely nothing in a DE envinronment. They stick very well and they let go very pregressively which means you can actually catch the drifts easier hence you learn more. At TWS claub racing weekend I actually did one of best lap times for the weekend on the first morning practice sessions on a damp track!!!! True they are a bit on the scary side if the track is fully wet but you would not run kumhos or hoosiers in these conditions anyway...

Greg Fishman

I got an email last week from the product manager of this line and he said they would be ready in December or January. Which probably means spring.....

Ed Newman

LOL, I spoke to Mike Kraemer last week about them and he said 'early 2004' which probably means spring.