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Old 08-20-2015, 03:33 PM
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Cory M
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Default Speed limits for trackdays?

R&T article on track day safety:

http://www.roadandtrack.com/motorspo...-speed-limits/

Here's the good news: Today's performance cars are faster and more capable than ever before. Here's some more good news: Open-lapping days at racetracks are more popular than ever, giving the owners of those performance cars the chance to approach the limits without breaking the law. Here's the bad news: There have been a number of fatal incidents in the past few years at open-lapping days, with both students and instructors losing their lives as a result of everything from driver mistakes to fluids on the racing surface.

After an incident last June in which an instructor was killed at Summit Point's Jefferson Circuit, I started hearing from my fellow driving coaches about a fellow who was advocating speed limits at trackdays. My first response was to chuckle. "A speed limit on a racetrack? Doesn't that kind of negate the whole point of going to the track in the first place?" Shortly afterwards, however, I started talking to "that guy". His name is Don Salisbury. His racetrack resume is as long as my credit-card statement after a race weekend. And he's not alone in his ideas. Not any more.

Next year will be Don's thirtieth year teaching new drivers how to get around a racetrack. That was ten years after he helped start the Blue Ridge Region of the SCCA. He's also been an IMSA crew chief and a flagging chief in multiple sanctions. He's seen it all --- and he doesn't like what he's seeing today. A few years ago, he started communicating about the dangers of modern trackdays with some of the biggest names in the trackday and racing communities, via a private email list. I asked him to share some of the insights he's had and some of the feedback he's received on two very controversial subjects: trackday speed limits and applying OSHA safety standards to corner-station workers at racetracks.

Jack Baruth: Don, what got you started in the instructor-safety movement?

Don Salisbury: It started when the Porsche Club of America instituted "extended passing" rules, allowing drivers in street cars to pass in the middle of turns with just a hand signal. Some of us saw this as risky. It was clearly meant to increase attendance at the expense of safety. And it was a wake-up call. We hadn't been paying attention to the increase in speeds. And there were other problems?

JB: Such as?

DS: Track walks, classroom work, and corner observation had all but disappeared from trackdays. You had novice drivers sleeping through the morning safety meetings and still being permitted to drive. It started when the economy went bad and attendance went down, so standards were being relaxed to retain as many participants as possible. So I started a personal movement, an email list to track incidents where drivers or instructors were hurt.

​JB: Why did you think this was necessary?​

DS: ​When the SCCA managed 99 percent of the road racing in this country, they gathered the incident reports. You'd have changes made the week after an incident happened. With so many organizations doing these open-lapping days, there's no longer any centralized repository for information about incidents and how to prevent them.

JB: ​Can you tell me how you came up with the idea of limiting speeds in Driver Education trackdays?

DS: ​That is easy: Structural integrity, kinetic energy and years of watching high speed incidents "tearing apart" and "balling up" cars in club and pro races with a large part of that being the heavier Showroom Stock cars. You have street cars without rollcages doing 150+ at some tracks. They were never designed to crash at those speeds.

JB: ​What's a good speed to limit to?

DS: ​There's no agreement on that yet, but I've suggested 90mph for novice drivers and 100mph for experienced drivers in street cars. As the speeds of Showroom Stock cars increased in the Eighties, the SCCA went from requiring rollbars to full cages and nets. The fastest cars were hitting 120mph in SSA. There were some catastrophic incidents and the number 115mph was used. At that speed because of the energy, rolls and "end over ends" were as likely. Going end over end in a car without a cage is all but certain to be catastrophic for the driver. And if there's an instructor in the car, it's certain to be catastrophic for him as well.

JB: ​What kind of reaction are you getting?

DS: ​There are a lot of instructors on my list who are "all in" on this.

JB: ​I've heard that famous "Speed Secrets" author Ross Bentley is calling for speed controls as well. That, or a requirement that unlimited-speed HPDE events should be limited to cars with full safety equipment.​

DS: ​Yes, in a recent email that he sent out to his list. As for the students --- well, you have to tell them that you'll let them make it up in the turns. And that it's a lot easier to learn proper braking at 100mph than 150.

JB: ​​So more and more people are focusing on driver and instructor safety. But you're already thinking about the safety of the corner workers as well. In particular, you've called for each station to have two flaggers, the way it's usually done at a pro race, instead of one. ​

DS: ​During my research for one of the articles I've written about worker safety, I learned of a new liability that may exist. At tracks that supply employees to man the stations, the track employees are likely to fall under OSHA supervision. The tracks must protect their employees so they develop procedures and protocols that meet advice from legal and insurance underwriters… Many event organizers do not know what the workers are capable of or what those workers should be told to do in an incident. All they know is what they are told by the tracks. Many of the track employees are in the same boat, they don't fully understand the capabilities.

JB: ​​And as a consequence, driver safety has been affected as well.​

DS: ​When you had two fully-trained corner workers at each station, you could respond in seconds to drivers who might need immediate medical attention. Now you have to throw a flag and wait for the emergency vehicle. So the response time to an injured driver has gone from seconds to minutes. So about a year ago I was asked by a very seasoned club-racing official about this. He has chaired a few club trackdays over the last 10 or so years, instructed for years but never been involved with pro or club racing track management. After I went thru this brief overview he said.... "We are driving in the dark."

JB: ​​So all of this needs to be looked at. What are some steps that we can take to ensure safety besides the above?​

DS: ​During flight training before you can solo your instructor gives you an FAA test. The test is designed to test your understanding of what you will encounter on those first few laps in the pattern. Your instructor grades the test and reviews answers you may misunderstand. Just before that flight. It could work here, too. More flag drills... meat ball and red. Require a couple of hours of corner working before driving on a track solo. But we need to talk about lowering kinetic energy in factory-stock cars first and foremost, before any of this other stuff.

​These ideas --- lowering speeds at trackdays, increasing the barriers to participation --- aren't going to be popular with everyone. Mark my words, though: If we, as a community of trackday drivers and instructors, don't start looking seriously at ways to reduce the risk, these decisions are going to be taken out of our hands and put in the hands of others. Lawmakers, attorneys, trial judges, and the non-enthusiast public. So let's start looking at getting our house in order, before someone decides to put it in order for us.
Old 08-20-2015, 03:45 PM
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Very timely
Old 08-20-2015, 05:11 PM
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The point about the waving yellow flags and the number of track workers is well taken.

Why don't they install warning lights at major corners (or in between) that can be triggered by the relevant worker freeing him up to aid a drover, or by race control remotely. This is 2015. LED panels should be the solution- maybe even solar powered. Easier to see from multiple points than flags, when placed slightly higher

A 12-turn track like Road Atl could be covered by 6 or so such lights.
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Old 08-20-2015, 06:09 PM
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I would love to hear from the instructors and PCA Types here. Don Salisbury cast aspersions on PCA. I have been a part of PCA Driving events and have only seen Safety as the watchword on the events I have been a part of. But it is only Zone 8 events. In essence the question is would you have your child participate in a PCA Event? Based upon what I have seen I would.
Old 08-20-2015, 06:15 PM
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^^ I totally agree about lights...Seriously, that's not that hard or expensive in the grand scheme of things..

My only issue (or more accurate, counter argument) to Salisbury's comments is that you will never get 100% of the track day organizations to buy in. And when you don't, everyone will go to those events, and nobody will go to the 'speed limit' events... As it is, there is a WIDE variation on how each organization runs their events. Many will tell you that PCA is "draconian" and exceptionally conservative on their approach and rules compared to the 'for profit' organizations. Its interesting that he specifically called out PCA's expanded passing...

also, having 2 corner workers at a station sounds great, but the added cost for a Drivers Ed weekend may prohibit the event from ever happening. There are a lot of events that just break even or lose money as it is...

IMO, it is 100% up to the instructor to control the speed of the student. Also IMO, we are signing off students to be solo WAY too early. When I was the DE registrar in our region, our rule was you were not allowed to go solo until 15 track days. 15 days!!! Heck, you can race with PCA with 12 days (Nasa less I think??)
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Old 08-20-2015, 07:24 PM
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Hopefully, any new rules on speed limitations will allow some flexibility to suit the circumstances of each venue. We've all driven tracks where missing a braking point going into a given corner at 90 MPH and going off at 40-50 MPH could be catastrophic. On other corners at other tracks, the same occurrence 20-30 MPH faster would pose very little risk. Venues with lots of concrete walls close to the track surface are a different risk level than tracks with huge runoff zones in the critical high speed areas. It would be a shame to impose a one-size-fits-all rule that unnecessarily turns away some newbies. For some of those guys, the ability to let-er-rip down the main straight is the big rush that sets the initial hook and draws them into the sport.

I also agree that it's unfair to single out PCA as culprit for reducing DE standards. At my local track, PCA runs a pretty tight ship. And I absolutely agree that it's the duty of the instructor to reign in a newbie if he feels that the combination of speed/driver skill/track circumstances warrant a speed reduction.
Old 08-20-2015, 08:11 PM
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Bill Lehman
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In my experience PCA "Extended Passing" is only permitted in the top two run groups which include Advanced Students and Instructors. Most of these cars have race seats and harnesses and other safety prep. IMHO there is nothing unsafe about passing two abreast through the corners if following PCA protocol that says each car gets 1/2 of the track. Its slow. I give and take very late point byes and usually tuck in behind the passing car just before the apex and expect others to do the same. I have over 130 days as an Instructor and tend to push my students. Once I feel they are starting to exceed their limits I basically call a "Time Out" and tell them to regroup and get smooth again.
Old 08-20-2015, 08:41 PM
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mglobe
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Any organization worth it's weight already has speed limits. They are set by the instructor based on his/her judgement of the track, conditions, vehicle, safety equipment, and mostly student's ability.

The purists may not like it, but most folks start out at DE's so they can drive fast. They have little idea how much there is to learn nor how little they know. They are there to go fast. It usually doesn't take long for them to "get it" about skills (most of them anyway).

Once you change the message to "you can't go over xxx mph" a lot of them are going to lose interest. They already go xxx mph on the street.

Explicit speed limits will kill DE programs.


How long till we get speed limits set in racing too?
Old 08-20-2015, 08:57 PM
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Originally Posted by mglobe
Any organization worth it's weight already has speed limits. They are set by the instructor based on his/her judgement of the track, conditions, vehicle, safety equipment, and mostly student's ability. The purists may not like it, but most folks start out at DE's so they can drive fast. They have little idea how much there is to learn nor how little they know. They are there to go fast. It usually doesn't take long for them to "get it" about skills (most of them anyway). Once you change the message to "you can't go over xxx mph" a lot of them are going to lose interest. They already go xxx mph on the street. Explicit speed limits will kill DE programs. How long till we get speed limits set in racing too?
+1

And his comments about extended passing are ignorant and way off base.
Old 08-20-2015, 08:59 PM
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I've never seen an issue with the Extended Passing at PCA events. Okay, never is a strong word, but the issues have been few. I have had a few "yahoos" take passes when a point wasn't given, in the Advanced (Blk) group. And I've heard complaints of it from others in that regard. I do dislike how our PCA group has intermingled "advanced" driver's with "fast" cars into the Instructor (Red) run group. Always felt it was the safest group to run with, as respect was given to each other regardless of the car we brought that weekend. That feeling has diminished.

As and instructor, I have grown more weary of the new cars because of the speeds they can obtain. And, also from trying to teach good skills around traction control systems, which make me feel both safer and more fearful at the same time.
Old 08-20-2015, 09:44 PM
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Sounds like the same lowest-common-denominator thinking that pervades so much of society today. All the standards that were put in place over the years to safely manage track days have been allowed to slack so the solution is to slow the cars.

It's true modern cars are faster than they were a decade ago, but they're also a lot safer as well. EOD, speed limits are non-starter in my book for all but the most rank beginner track enthusiast and I doubt they'd be nearly as effective as focusing on car safety, track safety, proper driver and response personnel training.

And why no mention of track modernization? Most of the tracks we drive are still operating in the stone age when it comes to safe design. How many tracks do we run with inadequate or poorly designed runoff, or cement or armco at critical points rather than tire barriers or energy absorbing barriers? IMO slowing Sean Edwards' student down by 10-20 mph would've done less to improve his chances of surviving than simply insuring they couldn't run head-on into a cement wall.

http://www.motorsport-safety.org/research-education
Old 08-20-2015, 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted by naroescape

IMO, it is 100% up to the instructor to control the speed of the student. Also IMO, we are signing off students to be solo WAY too early.
This
Old 08-20-2015, 11:11 PM
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I would love to see 2 well trained workers at each station like we mostly get at club races. How much more could it cost--$30-$40 more per car, maybe? Kids at $10/hr and not training are worthless.
Old 08-21-2015, 11:31 AM
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As much as I hate to be negative to ideas designed to protect me as an instructor and driver, one size fits all speed limits rankle me. I work in an industry rife with "consumer protecting" rules. They don't do squat. And I realize that speed limits are supported by some of the country's most experienced coaches--though my couple hundred days instructing students in cars and classroom does give me some prospective.

It's my job as an instructor to limit speed. I do this EVERY time I get in a passenger seat. It's also my job in the driver's seat to drive within my abilities.

If we limit speed to 90 mph or whatever, our students will not really learn to threshold brake or experience entering a turn from speed. That's supposed to be good?

Students will be solo'd without ever driving at racetrack speed. That's supposed to be good?

Many, probably most, DE incidents happen at the track out side of the apex. How does a speed limit help that?

BTW, for the region that recently imposed speed limits on uncaged cars in the advanced group, were they driving at 90mph on the same track as unlimited cars? Might there be some issues?

And let's face it, if we don't drive much faster at the track than on the highway, why not just auto-x?

I, probably more than most, hate being in novices' cars that can drive faster on their first day than my car will ever drive. Invariably, we slow down because I insist on focusing on skills, smoothness and consistency, which can't be learned "flat out". That's MY role in the car.

Regarding the statement that PCA has dumbed down it's standards, I don't see that in the northeast. When I do classrooms for PCA, I'm generally doing 6 classes for novices and a couple for intermediate and advanced each event. The drivers in the extended passing group generally have scores or hundreds of days' experience and usually competition experiences. Solo's and promotions are taken seriously and not automatic. Many regions, though hardly all, schedule track walks. Heck, some zone 1 regions are downright draconian. Maybe that's not how it is elsewhere? I certainly know that a number of private groups, or even the SCCA, aren't nearly as strict as we are in zone 1.

I don't know the solution other than instructor and driver responsibility. I rarely drive my own car, fully caged, 10/10. And no, that's not a complete solution and won't always protect drivers from fluids or mechanical's, for example. I;m just not keen on one size fits all solutions, and I ALWAYS worry about unintended consequences of new rules.

Last edited by mhm993; 08-21-2015 at 12:17 PM.
Old 08-21-2015, 11:47 AM
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I hate to say this but his SCCA roots are showing big time. We had to fight the establishment tooth and nail to get them to approve PDX's locally. In the 4 years we have done them we haver never had a major incident, a few nudges of barriers but cars drove home. The one good thing about PDX's are the Trained SCCA corner workers at each station.

Peter


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