Racing Etiquette (Part 1)
03-14-2015, 10:30 AM
#31
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I tried to word the original scenario as neutral as possible, to see what the general consensus was. I agree that the driver of Car B cannot expect Car A to simply get out of the way. Provided Car A is not actually blocking, and is driving a consistent and predictable line, it is up to the driver in Car B to use his head to figure out a way around Car A. FWIW, I am usually driving Car B, so I am not making excuses for the slow guy in front of me...
On to Part 2
On to Part 2
03-14-2015, 10:42 AM
#32
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Racing Etiquette - Part 2. This is a continuation of the scenario above, where A and B are duking it out. As a result of the defensive line A is taking (and as has been noted by a few of the posters on this thread), A and B are BOTH slower than their normal pace. Cars C and D, who are having a great race between them, come up behind B. C and D are in a different class than A and B, however that class is similar in pace to the class A and B are in (ie C and D are in SPB, A and B are in E or F). B lets C and D by, knowing that if they can get by A, he can hook onto their coat-tails and likely get by A as well. A knows this too. Now that A is holding up C and D, as well as B, should he be lifting to allow C and D by, knowing that he will probably lose position to B as well?
03-14-2015, 02:29 PM
#34
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03-14-2015, 02:34 PM
#35
Drifting
Part 2: Assess the situation and figure out how to get the best finishing position. I've had this happen hundreds of times sim racing and a few times in real life too. It all comes down to being efficient and working out the best possible outcome.
As the question is to what A should do: If it's the last lap of the race, keep the C and D between me and B. Race hard and be aware that C and D are of similar pace and may try some wild moves. If it's early in the race, head down and put in some hot laps to see if now that I'm not defending B, I can build some kind of gap. Reassess the speed of C&D. If it becomes clear that they are going to pass me at some point, find a spot on the track where I can let them both by without losing much time and hook onto D and try not to get passed by B, then resume battle with B.
As the question is to what A should do: If it's the last lap of the race, keep the C and D between me and B. Race hard and be aware that C and D are of similar pace and may try some wild moves. If it's early in the race, head down and put in some hot laps to see if now that I'm not defending B, I can build some kind of gap. Reassess the speed of C&D. If it becomes clear that they are going to pass me at some point, find a spot on the track where I can let them both by without losing much time and hook onto D and try not to get passed by B, then resume battle with B.
03-14-2015, 02:51 PM
#36
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The idea that blocking (altering your line, no matter HOW many times, to deprive the person behind you of racing room), chopping and "cutting up" another competitor is a legitimate and necessary piece of racecraft is, in a word, absurd.
It was SO common among some of the P-car community I raced (hard) with, that I actually came to believe that some of these people were TAUGHT that these were legitimate and desirable moves that were "part of racing."
In professional racing, I have no compunction (and without losing my composure or allowing emotions to guide me) rectifiying this situation with pro-active "karma" visited upon the offender(s).
In Club racing, I can't do that, so I teach and preach the idea of "ethical" racing, i.e. racing someone the way YOU want to be raced. Let's face it, in close racing you are often racing the same drivers every weekend, and you should WANT to be on speaking, if not friendly, terms with these folks.
I also believe that if you screw up a corner or control application (or fall off the track in a pack), you TAKE YOUR MEDICINE, pick HALF of the track (and not the middle of the road to make others guess) and if it cost you enough momentum, so be it. If you're faster, you'll get the position back.
Much of the problem I see is a sense of entitlement some drivers feel, promoting themselves (on the basis of a warped self-view or based on the potential performance of their car) at the expense of others.
If some of these folks took a step back and said "maybe there is a better way," studying what the best drivers do while together in close quarters on the track, they might block and chop less and focus on improving their own performance.
Oddly, I find far less problems with this type of behavior the further forward you run in the pack... A lesson to be learned here?
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03-14-2015, 03:24 PM
#37
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What about car B's racing etiquette? If he is evenly matched with car A then his best bet is to try to force a mistake. Lots of moves car B can make to try to throw A off his game plan from denying a line to gluing himself to the bumper to sticking his nose in where he hasn't got a chance to elicit a reaction. Sometimes that's a setup for the next corner. Obviously if A knows what he is doing he will ignore attempts that don't have a chance but besides being reckless, what if anything is considered bad form for B.
03-14-2015, 05:20 PM
#39
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03-14-2015, 05:59 PM
#40
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Racecraft is situational. If your competitor is ahead, and you're wasting time defending some out of class guy the drove up on you, you are doing it wrong.
Pick a place that hurts you very little, give some room, any maybe even a point. Then you can get back to chasing down the guy ahead of you while the guy you just let by hassles him.
OTOH, if you are coming into the tight section of the course, and Mr. Horsepower/I-Park-It-In-The-Corners is coming up on you, make him try the long way around around (if he can), so that you can exploit your advantage in the tight stuff.
Pick a place that hurts you very little, give some room, any maybe even a point. Then you can get back to chasing down the guy ahead of you while the guy you just let by hassles him.
OTOH, if you are coming into the tight section of the course, and Mr. Horsepower/I-Park-It-In-The-Corners is coming up on you, make him try the long way around around (if he can), so that you can exploit your advantage in the tight stuff.
03-15-2015, 09:14 AM
#41
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The right solution: do a better job in qualifying and the whole point is moot....
We have "A" guy like this. Fast car poorly driven. Cars two classes down would be all over him just to have him throttle a gap on the straights. Frustrating even after several discussions with officials and racers alike. But technically he's driving by the rules. The simple solution was to get a good quali and be clear of him early. If he blasted by you on a straight or you come up to lap him different story. Lapped traffic should ease over. That's expected in almost every pro series. Also know when you need to make your car wide until you can get in the twisted and make a gap.
We have "A" guy like this. Fast car poorly driven. Cars two classes down would be all over him just to have him throttle a gap on the straights. Frustrating even after several discussions with officials and racers alike. But technically he's driving by the rules. The simple solution was to get a good quali and be clear of him early. If he blasted by you on a straight or you come up to lap him different story. Lapped traffic should ease over. That's expected in almost every pro series. Also know when you need to make your car wide until you can get in the twisted and make a gap.
03-15-2015, 10:35 AM
#42
The thread on the PCA rules changes has an offshoot talking about the difficulty some of us (me included) have if we come up to a slightly slower car in a race.
Here is the scenario: Car A and Car B are both in the same class, and are somewhere mid-pack (ie not leading their class in the race). For whatever reason (bad start, poor qualifying, spin, etc.) Car B, the faster car, is behind Car A. Car B is on Car A's bumper for a lap or two, but is unable to get by Car A. Car A is not blocking per se, but is defending corners by doing such things as turning in early to close the door on the inside pass.
Should the driver of Car A lift at some point to let Car B pass?
Here is the scenario: Car A and Car B are both in the same class, and are somewhere mid-pack (ie not leading their class in the race). For whatever reason (bad start, poor qualifying, spin, etc.) Car B, the faster car, is behind Car A. Car B is on Car A's bumper for a lap or two, but is unable to get by Car A. Car A is not blocking per se, but is defending corners by doing such things as turning in early to close the door on the inside pass.
Should the driver of Car A lift at some point to let Car B pass?
03-15-2015, 11:11 PM
#43
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I realize that my answer was pretty short and to the point, but for years before I ever became involved with the RL community, it was my vocation and my avocation to race against (typically) Porsches and their drivers.
The idea that blocking (altering your line, no matter HOW many times, to deprive the person behind you of racing room), chopping and "cutting up" another competitor is a legitimate and necessary piece of racecraft is, in a word, absurd.
It was SO common among some of the P-car community I raced (hard) with, that I actually came to believe that some of these people were TAUGHT that these were legitimate and desirable moves that were "part of racing."
In professional racing, I have no compunction (and without losing my composure or allowing emotions to guide me) rectifiying this situation with pro-active "karma" visited upon the offender(s).
In Club racing, I can't do that, so I teach and preach the idea of "ethical" racing, i.e. racing someone the way YOU want to be raced. Let's face it, in close racing you are often racing the same drivers every weekend, and you should WANT to be on speaking, if not friendly, terms with these folks.
I also believe that if you screw up a corner or control application (or fall off the track in a pack), you TAKE YOUR MEDICINE, pick HALF of the track (and not the middle of the road to make others guess) and if it cost you enough momentum, so be it. If you're faster, you'll get the position back.
Much of the problem I see is a sense of entitlement some drivers feel, promoting themselves (on the basis of a warped self-view or based on the potential performance of their car) at the expense of others.
If some of these folks took a step back and said "maybe there is a better way," studying what the best drivers do while together in close quarters on the track, they might block and chop less and focus on improving their own performance.
Oddly, I find far less problems with this type of behavior the further forward you run in the pack... A lesson to be learned here?
The idea that blocking (altering your line, no matter HOW many times, to deprive the person behind you of racing room), chopping and "cutting up" another competitor is a legitimate and necessary piece of racecraft is, in a word, absurd.
It was SO common among some of the P-car community I raced (hard) with, that I actually came to believe that some of these people were TAUGHT that these were legitimate and desirable moves that were "part of racing."
In professional racing, I have no compunction (and without losing my composure or allowing emotions to guide me) rectifiying this situation with pro-active "karma" visited upon the offender(s).
In Club racing, I can't do that, so I teach and preach the idea of "ethical" racing, i.e. racing someone the way YOU want to be raced. Let's face it, in close racing you are often racing the same drivers every weekend, and you should WANT to be on speaking, if not friendly, terms with these folks.
I also believe that if you screw up a corner or control application (or fall off the track in a pack), you TAKE YOUR MEDICINE, pick HALF of the track (and not the middle of the road to make others guess) and if it cost you enough momentum, so be it. If you're faster, you'll get the position back.
Much of the problem I see is a sense of entitlement some drivers feel, promoting themselves (on the basis of a warped self-view or based on the potential performance of their car) at the expense of others.
If some of these folks took a step back and said "maybe there is a better way," studying what the best drivers do while together in close quarters on the track, they might block and chop less and focus on improving their own performance.
Oddly, I find far less problems with this type of behavior the further forward you run in the pack... A lesson to be learned here?
I race in SM where the level of competition is very high. I know who I am competitive with, and who I stand no chance against. I race the former as hard as I can. But if for some reason one of the faster guys gets behind me, I make it easy for them to get buy. I wish I was racing those guys, but on most days at most tracks I simply am not. On the occasions where I'm actually fast (instead of half fast) I race the top drivers as hard as I can.
03-16-2015, 01:16 PM
#44
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Well said ProCoach, I agree 100%
I realize that my answer was pretty short and to the point, but for years before I ever became involved with the RL community, it was my vocation and my avocation to race against (typically) Porsches and their drivers.
The idea that blocking (altering your line, no matter HOW many times, to deprive the person behind you of racing room), chopping and "cutting up" another competitor is a legitimate and necessary piece of racecraft is, in a word, absurd.
It was SO common among some of the P-car community I raced (hard) with, that I actually came to believe that some of these people were TAUGHT that these were legitimate and desirable moves that were "part of racing."
In professional racing, I have no compunction (and without losing my composure or allowing emotions to guide me) rectifiying this situation with pro-active "karma" visited upon the offender(s).
In Club racing, I can't do that, so I teach and preach the idea of "ethical" racing, i.e. racing someone the way YOU want to be raced. Let's face it, in close racing you are often racing the same drivers every weekend, and you should WANT to be on speaking, if not friendly, terms with these folks.
I also believe that if you screw up a corner or control application (or fall off the track in a pack), you TAKE YOUR MEDICINE, pick HALF of the track (and not the middle of the road to make others guess) and if it cost you enough momentum, so be it. If you're faster, you'll get the position back.
Much of the problem I see is a sense of entitlement some drivers feel, promoting themselves (on the basis of a warped self-view or based on the potential performance of their car) at the expense of others.
If some of these folks took a step back and said "maybe there is a better way," studying what the best drivers do while together in close quarters on the track, they might block and chop less and focus on improving their own performance.
Oddly, I find far less problems with this type of behavior the further forward you run in the pack... A lesson to be learned here?
The idea that blocking (altering your line, no matter HOW many times, to deprive the person behind you of racing room), chopping and "cutting up" another competitor is a legitimate and necessary piece of racecraft is, in a word, absurd.
It was SO common among some of the P-car community I raced (hard) with, that I actually came to believe that some of these people were TAUGHT that these were legitimate and desirable moves that were "part of racing."
In professional racing, I have no compunction (and without losing my composure or allowing emotions to guide me) rectifiying this situation with pro-active "karma" visited upon the offender(s).
In Club racing, I can't do that, so I teach and preach the idea of "ethical" racing, i.e. racing someone the way YOU want to be raced. Let's face it, in close racing you are often racing the same drivers every weekend, and you should WANT to be on speaking, if not friendly, terms with these folks.
I also believe that if you screw up a corner or control application (or fall off the track in a pack), you TAKE YOUR MEDICINE, pick HALF of the track (and not the middle of the road to make others guess) and if it cost you enough momentum, so be it. If you're faster, you'll get the position back.
Much of the problem I see is a sense of entitlement some drivers feel, promoting themselves (on the basis of a warped self-view or based on the potential performance of their car) at the expense of others.
If some of these folks took a step back and said "maybe there is a better way," studying what the best drivers do while together in close quarters on the track, they might block and chop less and focus on improving their own performance.
Oddly, I find far less problems with this type of behavior the further forward you run in the pack... A lesson to be learned here?
03-16-2015, 01:23 PM
#45
Rennlist Member
That football move .....
So at what point where a driver is blocking and chopping you repeatedly does that "football play" or "Police car move" become an almost accepted version of "Race craft" ?
To clarify before I get hammered on, I don't really feel it's an accepted option anytime although drivers must be aware that some drivers feel it to be an option, so be aware, if you are chopping and blocking it could land you in the grass or tire wall.
My thoughts are to make one move, choose your line, and then try to make your car as wide as possible, and if the other driver can still get by then let him and watch what he does. If he really is faster than you can learn something, if not then re-pass him, passing is the fun in this sport anyway.
To clarify before I get hammered on, I don't really feel it's an accepted option anytime although drivers must be aware that some drivers feel it to be an option, so be aware, if you are chopping and blocking it could land you in the grass or tire wall.
My thoughts are to make one move, choose your line, and then try to make your car as wide as possible, and if the other driver can still get by then let him and watch what he does. If he really is faster than you can learn something, if not then re-pass him, passing is the fun in this sport anyway.