Michelin PSC vs PSC2 vs Trofeo R
03-12-2015, 09:02 PM
#1
Racer
Thread Starter
Michelin PSC vs PSC2 vs Trofeo R
Spring is coming...
Has anyone here had first hand back to back experience between these tires? (No anecdotal comments please).
We've been running the original Michelin Pilot Sport Cups - the 265/18" version that's been around for years. We've had great success with them. I'm not talking about the OEM 19" version with the extra grooves also called a PSC.
Now Michelin has the new PSC2. But I'm not convinced this is better than the original. I am suspecting it's more like the OEM version with a harder compound.
Then I came across a video of Chris Harris testing the PSC2 on a GT3 vs the new Pirelli Trofeo R. According to his test, the Pirelli was 2 seconds/lap faster than the new PSC2. So this supports my theory of the PSC2 being a harder compound OEM tire.
I used to run the P-Zero Corsas years ago and they were not very good. so I am suspicions. I also used to run Toyo RA1s and then R888s. The R888s were not better than the RA1. And neither is even close to the old MPSC.
So given this triangle of tires... has anyone had actual experience to place then in relation to each other?
My concern is for a track prepared car (E46 M3 w/ Motons) pushed to the limit by an experience Instructor/Club Racer. Is either of these new tires likely to outperform the old Michelin Pilot Sport Cup?
Anybody?
Has anyone here had first hand back to back experience between these tires? (No anecdotal comments please).
We've been running the original Michelin Pilot Sport Cups - the 265/18" version that's been around for years. We've had great success with them. I'm not talking about the OEM 19" version with the extra grooves also called a PSC.
Now Michelin has the new PSC2. But I'm not convinced this is better than the original. I am suspecting it's more like the OEM version with a harder compound.
Then I came across a video of Chris Harris testing the PSC2 on a GT3 vs the new Pirelli Trofeo R. According to his test, the Pirelli was 2 seconds/lap faster than the new PSC2. So this supports my theory of the PSC2 being a harder compound OEM tire.
I used to run the P-Zero Corsas years ago and they were not very good. so I am suspicions. I also used to run Toyo RA1s and then R888s. The R888s were not better than the RA1. And neither is even close to the old MPSC.
So given this triangle of tires... has anyone had actual experience to place then in relation to each other?
My concern is for a track prepared car (E46 M3 w/ Motons) pushed to the limit by an experience Instructor/Club Racer. Is either of these new tires likely to outperform the old Michelin Pilot Sport Cup?
Anybody?
03-13-2015, 05:13 PM
#2
Three Wheelin'
You need to realize that a lot of OEM tires, despite having the same name, are not the same tire. The Porsche MSC2 is developed specifically for that vehicle and to the manufacturer's specs. That does not mean it is the same as an off the shelf MSC2.
I've seen this from every manufacturer and almost all performance vehicles. There will be some marking or spec number on the tire that denotes exactly what that tire is, which is why an off the shelf tire is not the same as the OEM spec tire. This is probably also why the Chris Harris test showed the Trofeo R as a lot faster. I'm sure for Porsche's requirement the tire has a bit less grip in order to make it last longer especially considering it is going on a street car.
I've seen this from every manufacturer and almost all performance vehicles. There will be some marking or spec number on the tire that denotes exactly what that tire is, which is why an off the shelf tire is not the same as the OEM spec tire. This is probably also why the Chris Harris test showed the Trofeo R as a lot faster. I'm sure for Porsche's requirement the tire has a bit less grip in order to make it last longer especially considering it is going on a street car.
03-14-2015, 12:15 AM
#3
I've tried all 3. The Trofeo R are by far the fastest and have the shortest lifespan. I found that they were almost 2 seconds a lap faster at Calabogie than the MPSC2 and PSC. So far I find the MPSC2 just as quick as the PSC will much better lifespan. I like the Trofeo but its hard to justify the prices. The MPSC2 is also by far the best in the wet.
In your case i'm pretty confident the Trofeo will be faster than the PSC.
In your case i'm pretty confident the Trofeo will be faster than the PSC.
Last edited by shizzle; 03-14-2015 at 11:00 AM.
06-12-2015, 12:28 AM
#5
Burning Brakes
Looking for some decent track tires for my 996 GT3. Does anyone have a direct comparison between MPSC2s and BFG R1s? I'm looking for a set of tires for my 996 GT3, which I can use to drive to and from the track (only 20 min each way) without needing to swap wheels after I get there.
06-12-2015, 10:03 AM
#6
Rennlist Member
As others have said, the Pirellis are fastest with proper set up, but they wear out faster than Britney Spears' fame...
06-12-2015, 11:23 PM
#7
Burning Brakes
LOL. Would prefer to try something that will remain fast for a few days. Just wondering if the BFG R1's and the MPSC2's are considered comparable from a grip standpoint, or if one is known to be substantially more grippy than the other,
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06-12-2015, 11:53 PM
#8
This is on a C6 Z06 (Z07 package) so YMMV.
I'd imagine the MPSC/MPSC2 tire spec on the Z06 is a little different than that of the Porsche spec but the delta should be similar.
At Thunderhill, I'd say the MPSC2 is at best 1 second a lap faster than the MPSC. This is running 55-56's over the top 3 mile config.
As for lasting longer, maybe by another sessions or two but nothing earth shattering. Both MPSC and MPSC slasted about 2 good days with the MPSC2 running not falling off as fast. However, once the MPSC2 get to a certain wear, they will drop pace quickly and whatever your car is trending towards (oversteer or understeer) will be highly exaggerated so be careful on that.
The MPSC2 set is ran lasted about 110 laps before cording all four tires. MPSC1 about 90.
I'd imagine the MPSC/MPSC2 tire spec on the Z06 is a little different than that of the Porsche spec but the delta should be similar.
At Thunderhill, I'd say the MPSC2 is at best 1 second a lap faster than the MPSC. This is running 55-56's over the top 3 mile config.
As for lasting longer, maybe by another sessions or two but nothing earth shattering. Both MPSC and MPSC slasted about 2 good days with the MPSC2 running not falling off as fast. However, once the MPSC2 get to a certain wear, they will drop pace quickly and whatever your car is trending towards (oversteer or understeer) will be highly exaggerated so be careful on that.
The MPSC2 set is ran lasted about 110 laps before cording all four tires. MPSC1 about 90.
06-13-2015, 01:47 PM
#9
Burning Brakes
This is on a C6 Z06 (Z07 package) so YMMV.
I'd imagine the MPSC/MPSC2 tire spec on the Z06 is a little different than that of the Porsche spec but the delta should be similar.
At Thunderhill, I'd say the MPSC2 is at best 1 second a lap faster than the MPSC. This is running 55-56's over the top 3 mile config.
As for lasting longer, maybe by another sessions or two but nothing earth shattering. Both MPSC and MPSC slasted about 2 good days with the MPSC2 running not falling off as fast. However, once the MPSC2 get to a certain wear, they will drop pace quickly and whatever your car is trending towards (oversteer or understeer) will be highly exaggerated so be careful on that.
The MPSC2 set is ran lasted about 110 laps before cording all four tires. MPSC1 about 90.
I'd imagine the MPSC/MPSC2 tire spec on the Z06 is a little different than that of the Porsche spec but the delta should be similar.
At Thunderhill, I'd say the MPSC2 is at best 1 second a lap faster than the MPSC. This is running 55-56's over the top 3 mile config.
As for lasting longer, maybe by another sessions or two but nothing earth shattering. Both MPSC and MPSC slasted about 2 good days with the MPSC2 running not falling off as fast. However, once the MPSC2 get to a certain wear, they will drop pace quickly and whatever your car is trending towards (oversteer or understeer) will be highly exaggerated so be careful on that.
The MPSC2 set is ran lasted about 110 laps before cording all four tires. MPSC1 about 90.
06-14-2016, 12:21 PM
#10
Racer
Thread Starter
Okay... I've now used up my first set of Trofeo R's... Now I'm trying a set of the new Sport Cup 2s. All of my findings are from a 2005 E46 M3 with Motons and a cloned CSL engine.
The grip of the Trofeo Rs is way better than the original Sport Cup. It feels the most like a slick of any DOT R-Compound tire I have ever driven. This includes R6s. However, on this car I was not able to beat my best lap times set with the old Michelin.
On this 3200lb car, I found that when pushed really hard the Trofeos would go away and get slippery. The Michelin had a harder compound that I think stood up to this better.
I found the Trofeos to be a bit more "squishey". So you need to be careful not to abuse them. Again, the Michelin tolerated being pushed hard much better IMHO.
The Trofeo is great in the rain. Better then the old sport cup in intermediate conditons but perhaps not as good in wetter conditions. Neither is very good if it's actually raining. Softer compound is probably the reason why.
Mostly, I was unhappy with the fact that I used up the Trofeos after only 6 track days. If my wife were sharing the car as usual I might get a single weekend? Seems a bit expensive for a track-day tire. We're not racing here.
Now I've got about a day on the new Sport Cup 2. My initial impression is it is not as good as the Trofeo or the old Michelin. The grip is not the same. Now I am talking about the first few sessions on a new tire when it has full tread depth. So perhaps it will get better as it wears. You cannot drive hard into a corner like you can on the Trofeo. You have to slow down more to rotate the car.
That being said... At Mosport (on the same weekend), I was able to get pretty close to the same lap times out of the Michelin as the Trofeo. The Michelin came within a second of the Trofeo in the same conditions. I just had drive it differently.
Since we're not supposed to be timing, speed it not really the primary factor. The Trofeo surely feels like a higher performance tire. In a corner, the grip is fantastic. I suspect this encourages you to over drive a bit and this causes an undetectable scrubbing that is killing the lap time. Perhaps if I went back and made allowances for this it might go faster. i.e. rotate the car - then get on the gas. Stop having fun with the cornering loads. This would probably make them last longer too. For me, I can't see them lasting long enough to heat cycle out. I hit cord before there was any drop in grip. And I did have them over the winter.
I think for 90% of drivers, the Trofeos would be an excellent choice. As someone who races, I think I push the car way harder than most people. At 80% load, the Trofeo is fantastic. But at 80% so is the Michelin. The biggest factor for me in this is the cost of operation. How often am I willing to buy new tires if it's just driving schools? If you are racing... money is no object. But we're not racing here. So economics is important.
For this car, I also need to drive to and from the track. And if it rains, I don't want to die on my way home. So this really limits my options for track tires. Both the Trofeo and Michelin are excellent in this regard. The other I used in the past was the Toyo R888. It was good for the ride home but was by far the least grippy on the track.
My 2 cents. Perhaps I'll give the Trofeos another shot and try to restrain myself? Never been very good at that...
Peter
The grip of the Trofeo Rs is way better than the original Sport Cup. It feels the most like a slick of any DOT R-Compound tire I have ever driven. This includes R6s. However, on this car I was not able to beat my best lap times set with the old Michelin.
On this 3200lb car, I found that when pushed really hard the Trofeos would go away and get slippery. The Michelin had a harder compound that I think stood up to this better.
I found the Trofeos to be a bit more "squishey". So you need to be careful not to abuse them. Again, the Michelin tolerated being pushed hard much better IMHO.
The Trofeo is great in the rain. Better then the old sport cup in intermediate conditons but perhaps not as good in wetter conditions. Neither is very good if it's actually raining. Softer compound is probably the reason why.
Mostly, I was unhappy with the fact that I used up the Trofeos after only 6 track days. If my wife were sharing the car as usual I might get a single weekend? Seems a bit expensive for a track-day tire. We're not racing here.
Now I've got about a day on the new Sport Cup 2. My initial impression is it is not as good as the Trofeo or the old Michelin. The grip is not the same. Now I am talking about the first few sessions on a new tire when it has full tread depth. So perhaps it will get better as it wears. You cannot drive hard into a corner like you can on the Trofeo. You have to slow down more to rotate the car.
That being said... At Mosport (on the same weekend), I was able to get pretty close to the same lap times out of the Michelin as the Trofeo. The Michelin came within a second of the Trofeo in the same conditions. I just had drive it differently.
Since we're not supposed to be timing, speed it not really the primary factor. The Trofeo surely feels like a higher performance tire. In a corner, the grip is fantastic. I suspect this encourages you to over drive a bit and this causes an undetectable scrubbing that is killing the lap time. Perhaps if I went back and made allowances for this it might go faster. i.e. rotate the car - then get on the gas. Stop having fun with the cornering loads. This would probably make them last longer too. For me, I can't see them lasting long enough to heat cycle out. I hit cord before there was any drop in grip. And I did have them over the winter.
I think for 90% of drivers, the Trofeos would be an excellent choice. As someone who races, I think I push the car way harder than most people. At 80% load, the Trofeo is fantastic. But at 80% so is the Michelin. The biggest factor for me in this is the cost of operation. How often am I willing to buy new tires if it's just driving schools? If you are racing... money is no object. But we're not racing here. So economics is important.
For this car, I also need to drive to and from the track. And if it rains, I don't want to die on my way home. So this really limits my options for track tires. Both the Trofeo and Michelin are excellent in this regard. The other I used in the past was the Toyo R888. It was good for the ride home but was by far the least grippy on the track.
My 2 cents. Perhaps I'll give the Trofeos another shot and try to restrain myself? Never been very good at that...
Peter
06-14-2016, 05:37 PM
#11
Rennlist Member
Nitto NT01 . Use a square 275-35-18 setup and be done with it. I used this setup for years on my E46...with a full track setup/alignment, 700-800# springs, -4F and -3R camber. Works like champ.
Half the price of those other tires, and give just as good performance, if not better as they wear in.
Half the price of those other tires, and give just as good performance, if not better as they wear in.
06-14-2016, 07:21 PM
#12
Nitto NT01 . Use a square 275-35-18 setup and be done with it. I used this setup for years on my E46...with a full track setup/alignment, 700-800# springs, -4F and -3R camber. Works like champ.
Half the price of those other tires, and give just as good performance, if not better as they wear in.
Half the price of those other tires, and give just as good performance, if not better as they wear in.
06-14-2016, 09:20 PM
#13
Rennlist Member
Nitto NT01 . Use a square 275-35-18 setup and be done with it. I used this setup for years on my E46...with a full track setup/alignment, 700-800# springs, -4F and -3R camber. Works like champ.
Half the price of those other tires, and give just as good performance, if not better as they wear in.
Half the price of those other tires, and give just as good performance, if not better as they wear in.
06-15-2016, 08:48 AM
#14
Three Wheelin'
I've used Nitto NT01 as well on my 996 and was impressed ! they take a bit longer to warm up vs a gen 1 pilot sport cup but the feel and stick they provide is awesome.... maybe Peter can try a set next on the M3 as I bet they fall somewhere in between the Trofeo R and cup sport II -- and they are much less pricey than either of those tires...
06-15-2016, 11:30 AM
#15
Rennlist Member
+1. 900/1000 lb springs on our e46 m3, JRZRS2s and lightly gutted interior. 3.5 front 2.5 rear camber and these tires will be sticky FOREVER. We just finished WEEKEND number 12 and are getting ready to put the next set on. Just a perfect HPDE tire, and if you move down to 275/40/17, can get a set of 4 for around 625 shipped when Discount tire direct does their semiannual sale. Why on earth run anything different....