993944S2

We are rebuilding the race car from the tub. We have a very old smart camera system. Our driver has never used data collection. What is a decent entry level data collection system and are cameras integrated today, or are they two different systems? Is it reasonable to simply install front and rear facing Go-Pro's?

Thanks for any input.

Don

ProCoach

GoPro is just "dumb" video. No speed, no g's, no lap times, no information other than where your driver places the car on track. If the GoPro is outside the car, no information on how the driver is "commanding" the car to turn, to brake and to go back to power.

Video is KEY in validating the data. I believe you MUST have it. I believe it must be mounted in the car so you can see exactly what is going on.

I also think the great breakthrough is information laid over the video easily, with one or NO steps to get there.

Three choices.

The first two are if you're not interested in the squiggly lines per se, the Racelogic Video VBOX Lite or Pro and the Race-Keeper HDX2 are super easy to use and provide all that info, but you are very limited in what (more than basic) information you can get and show. The side by side video comparison is very compelling. No dash or timing displays other than the VBOX OLED, and the VVB Lite with display is about $2100, the HDX2 is $3000.

If you want temps, pressures, brake pressure and throttle pressure there is the third option that don't cost much if any more. This is nearly infinitely expandable, has video with LOTS of info on it and is plug and play, and records for further study and diagnostics good information. More soon!

blotto649

Check out Harry's Lap Timer mobile app for iOS and Android. Probably not the most accurate system available, but you can assemble a really impressive feature set for about $500 including a GoPro as your second camera.

Matt Romanowski

I'm assuming this is the S2 in your sig?

I like to tell people there is a cost vs ease of use scale, where typically the easier it is to use, the more money it costs. You can do overlay data from nearly any system onto a video from nearly any camera with Trackvision, Racerender, or a couple of other software packages. These take the most time and effort, but cost the least. Then you can use an integrated system like Peter mentioned or an AiM data logger along with a SmartyCam HD to have it all done automatically (start and stop, data overlay, etc). All you have to do with a SmartyCam HD setup is take the card out of the camera and put it in your laptop or smart TV to watch. It's literally that easy.

As to loggers, there is a great choice. In the AiM setup, which is really the value leader in data acquisition, you could go with a MXL2 or MXG dash, or some of the great deals that will start showing up on used MXL Pistas or Evo4s. With a few sensors for things like throttle position, steering input, and brake pressure, you would have a great basis to analyse the driver and improve their performance. Then you can add a few temperature and pressure sensors to monitor the engine and drivetrain. Now is the time to do this if you have the car down to the tub as adding a full logging systems will significantly reduce the wiring that is needed.

I've written a nice article at http://www.trailbrake.net/featured-a...nning-a-system to help explain what to consider when choosing a data system.

Juha G

This is a very cost effective way to get video and (some) data overlaid.
In a street car you can add a bluetooth OBD2 connection so you get more data through there. (like engine rpm etc. what is available through the obd port)

Here's an example with go pro and harry's lap timer. Nevermind the bad lines and missed apexes, it was my first laps at SPA:

ProCoach

I like Matt's article.

I will say that I have sold FOUR AiM Solo DL/SmartyCam HD combinations along with TWO Video VBOX Lite systems in the past fourteen days to frustrated Harry's users...

And I bought the "Pro" version from him in 2008, so I am familiar with the benefits and weaknesses.

Most people that I work with and supply systems for are interested in "integrated" systems.

Those take the form of either "one-box" data and video systems like Racelogic's Video VBOX and Race-Keeper's HE and HDX2, or connected logger/camera combinations like the Traqmate TraqDash/Replay Prime-X or the AiM EVO4/SmartyCam HD.

Although Matt talks about small, inexpensive portable loggers like the AiM Solo or one of my favorite, VBOX Sport, both around $400, to be used with separate cameras like the GoPro, Drift. Contour or Replay, and together with a third-party software solution like Trackvision or RaceRender to combine them, this takes a great deal of time to do AT THE TRACK and is nearly inpossible to do between sessions. Plus, there are the logistics of keeping everything charged and the inability to get more than the most basic measures like speed, g's, track position and lap times.

Since you have the car down, this would be a good time to start with a dedicated system. The first decision is whether or not you want to replace the conventional instruments or cluster with an electronic dash.

If you don't, then you can get simple integrated video from systems that do not offer a dash option, like the Video VBOX and Race-Keeper one-box systems. These have a minimum of two bullet cameras with one box that combines the information together, but again, the ability to take in more than engine RPM and throttle position is limited.

If you ARE interested in a dash replacement for analog gauges, the choices, in my mind, are between MoTeC and AiM. Both of these systems offer MUCH more flexibility, capability, but at some cost, particularly the MoTeC. Because you have an older car (pre-ECU and CAN communications within the car between control inputs), in order to collect and log basic driver control inputs (gas, brake, steering) and engine health (RPM, temps and pressures), you will need a decent logger that can accept all of these sensors with minimum muss and fuss. If you want to do this and keep some gauges, you can with the EVO 4 AiM and for $200 extra, you can get a small backlit G-Dash that has terrific shift lights, four programmable alarms and great driver timing data along with basic health measures on the screen. That is the most popular combination I sell for older cars at a Club racing and HPDE level.

The reason I don't sell more MoTeC is because, as you require in your original post, there is really no good INTEGRATED video solution for the MoTeC other than their own VCS-HD, which by itself is more money than the AiM EVO4/G-Dash/SmartyCam HD combination with all the sensors you need to get started! Oh, and the MoTeC C125, their least expensive display/logger is one and a half times more than that!

The combination of an automated, integrated data and video, no muss, no fuss system that offers a COMBINATION of almost all the of the logging and data manipulation power of MoTeC that a Club racer would use, includes video, remains almost infinitely expandable and offers great support within the community is AiM.

Let Matt, me or Jerry know if we can help!

fleadh

Make sure your driver is willing to learn to use it before investing a bunch of time and money setting it up... :-)

-mike

Veloce Raptor

THIS

And/or bring in a coach for a day to work with your driver to get him/her comfortable using these new tools.

Matt Romanowski

Even if your driver doesn't use it for driver improvement, to be able to record engine vitals is worth it. Add in the reduced weight and wiring complexity and there is no question it's worth it.

ProCoach

At one time, nearly every data system needed to have a trained, dedicated engineer to set the system up, maintain it, troubleshoot it, download it and arrange the information so the crew and driver could make sense of it.

This past week at Sebring, I saw that "system" still in existence with a few Cup and "historic" protoype cars... Remember, these Cup cars are some six, eight years or more old. Antiques! Hahaha!

About ten years ago, it became possible to have some of these data systems overlay, in regular alpha numeric characters (letters, number), key data like throttle position, speeds, temps and pressures. Still, hard to set up and not automated. Definitely not very good video quality, but better than nothing.

I think most people want to dip their toe in the water first by getting a system that will log the information, but primarily function as a "translator" of vehicle health data and driver performance results to be overlaid automatically onto high-def video.

I DO think that most experienced drivers, IF they can review quickly and easily what they JUST did on-track, WITH KPI's like throttle position and brake pressure as well as RPM to assist in making proper gear choices, that they can decide on one or two focus' for the the next session, without delving into strip charts and scatter plots.

So, the breakthrough that I have seen in the last three years is equipment that, for less than the cost of the least expensive MoTeC dash (and I am a dealer and love their stuff), can DO just this plus, when the driver decides to delve deeper (or, as VR suggests, enlist experienced personnel to help shorten the learning curve), they have all of what they need to make even better, more educated decisions.

I happen to know that drivers that have this stuff, but don't explore more complicated analysis or install serious sensor arrays, are NOT missing too much as they start out on learning what they're doing so they can drive and tune the car to be better. If they decide to move in that direction, great. There's tons of good resources out there and a small percentage of users who will take advantage of that.

But the key is a reliable, easy to use, NO MAINTENANCE system that has GPS coordinates in a database so that the driver doesn't have to set the start/finish or add one later, that has automated control and charging of an SD or HD camera that captures what is going on inside and outside the car, that that camera has WRITTEN REAL-TIME the key performance indicators ONTO the video for INSTANT playback, and finally, has the ability to accept from as mild to as wild a sensor package as you wish.

People do have a tendency to over-complicate things. They see the relative complexity and say "eff that!" when really they just need to take a step by step approach and lean on the experienced shops, users and dealers of a wide variety of equipment.

It really is one of the few mods you can make to your car that will guarantee a performance improvement, even if you only watch the films...