(996) GT3's damaged on track - root causes?
10-27-2014, 07:04 PM
#32
Rennlist Member
Honestly I'm completely puzzled by this 6GT3 thread. Having only driven a 6gt3 occasional, but drive and race a 6cup. I don't get it. It's the easiest car I have driven. Try pushing hard in an early Carrera and look out.
Has to be lack of talent regardless of suspension issues.
Has to be lack of talent regardless of suspension issues.
10-27-2014, 07:27 PM
#33
Peter,
Yup, I remember "the e36 M3 problem" well as it use to come up in nearly every instructors meeting for years. And being honest, it happened to me... not on track, not "playing", and actually not fast, but unfortunately the car was a total loss.
While I certainly agree with others about running out skill at high rates of speed as others have noted, BMW used rubber (presume still do?) in the rear suspension, in particular massive rubber rear subframe mounts with potential to create a rubber band effect in E36s that could release very quickly after an initial counter steer. In one of my E36s you could even feel it taking a different set during fast sweepers with the weight transfer. My race car got solid mounts with great feel and all was incredibly predictable.
Yup, I remember "the e36 M3 problem" well as it use to come up in nearly every instructors meeting for years. And being honest, it happened to me... not on track, not "playing", and actually not fast, but unfortunately the car was a total loss.
While I certainly agree with others about running out skill at high rates of speed as others have noted, BMW used rubber (presume still do?) in the rear suspension, in particular massive rubber rear subframe mounts with potential to create a rubber band effect in E36s that could release very quickly after an initial counter steer. In one of my E36s you could even feel it taking a different set during fast sweepers with the weight transfer. My race car got solid mounts with great feel and all was incredibly predictable.
Thanks
-Mike
10-29-2014, 07:38 PM
#35
Rennlist Member
I have to agree that damage to the GT3, it is almost always the driver that is the weak link. Horsepower and torque as in the Vipers and Z06 with their drivers is a weaker link in my opinion. I have seen way more Vipers and Z06's go off track than GT3's.
You have to have a lot of seat time to drive a 996 GT3 fast. It is only with seat time, that you figure out what all the movement behind is. The only nannies present in the 996 GT3 is ABS. You have to keep in the gas (which is difficult to do)and not have large steering corrections. You have to manage the downshifts to avoid the mechanical overrevs.
You have to have a lot of seat time to drive a 996 GT3 fast. It is only with seat time, that you figure out what all the movement behind is. The only nannies present in the 996 GT3 is ABS. You have to keep in the gas (which is difficult to do)and not have large steering corrections. You have to manage the downshifts to avoid the mechanical overrevs.
10-29-2014, 08:16 PM
#36
Rennlist Member
I moved up to a 6gt3 couple of years ago after seven years of tracking a Boxster S and four years of racing (mostly Skippy MX-5) without ever driving a 911 on the track before. Got mine already well set up by the PO (close friend) with Motons, monoballs, arms, no-rubber suspension, welded pipes. It took me only a couple of laps at Limerock to start throwing it into turns and playing with slip angles on (then) old and slippery Nitto NT-01s.
As others have said, the car is honest, it communicates grip levels very well, but it is not suited for the timid. It's much safer (and a blast!) for drivers that are comfortable straddling the grip limit most of the time than for drivers that rarely go over 8-9/10ths. The latter ones will be the ones getting spooked when a set of circumstances takes them closer to 10/10ths and beyond in an instance.
For current owners that see themselves in the latter group, I suggest a car control clinic at one of the racing schools, few autocross sessions on slippery (street) tires, a skid pad session in the wet, or any other way to safely approach and get comfortable with 10/10ths grip in the car. It's where it's safest and it truly shines. The best track car bang for the buck in the market today, hands down.
EDIT: Hope I didn't just jinx myself. Counter-jinx: Car sucks and spins all the time.
As others have said, the car is honest, it communicates grip levels very well, but it is not suited for the timid. It's much safer (and a blast!) for drivers that are comfortable straddling the grip limit most of the time than for drivers that rarely go over 8-9/10ths. The latter ones will be the ones getting spooked when a set of circumstances takes them closer to 10/10ths and beyond in an instance.
For current owners that see themselves in the latter group, I suggest a car control clinic at one of the racing schools, few autocross sessions on slippery (street) tires, a skid pad session in the wet, or any other way to safely approach and get comfortable with 10/10ths grip in the car. It's where it's safest and it truly shines. The best track car bang for the buck in the market today, hands down.
EDIT: Hope I didn't just jinx myself. Counter-jinx: Car sucks and spins all the time.
Last edited by hf1; 10-29-2014 at 08:33 PM.
10-29-2014, 09:01 PM
#37
Rennlist Member
^^^^^^^This!
REALLY. I can teach you how to drive the line fast. But i can not teach you seat of the pants feel and car control that you need when the car steps out at 100mph. Patience, Experience and seat time and you eventually get there.
REALLY. I can teach you how to drive the line fast. But i can not teach you seat of the pants feel and car control that you need when the car steps out at 100mph. Patience, Experience and seat time and you eventually get there.
10-29-2014, 09:27 PM
#39
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I moved up to a 6gt3 couple of years ago after seven years of tracking a Boxster S and four years of racing (mostly Skippy MX-5) without ever driving a 911 on the track before. Got mine already well set up by the PO (close friend) with Motons, monoballs, arms, no-rubber suspension, welded pipes. It took me only a couple of laps at Limerock to start throwing it into turns and playing with slip angles on (then) old and slippery Nitto NT-01s.
As others have said, the car is honest, it communicates grip levels very well, but it is not suited for the timid. It's much safer (and a blast!) for drivers that are comfortable straddling the grip limit most of the time than for drivers that rarely go over 8-9/10ths. The latter ones will be the ones getting spooked when a set of circumstances takes them closer to 10/10ths and beyond in an instance.
For current owners that see themselves in the latter group, I suggest a car control clinic at one of the racing schools, few autocross sessions on slippery (street) tires, a skid pad session in the wet, or any other way to safely approach and get comfortable with 10/10ths grip in the car. It's where it's safest and it truly shines. The best track car bang for the buck in the market today, hands down.
EDIT: Hope I didn't just jinx myself. Counter-jinx: Car sucks and spins all the time.
As others have said, the car is honest, it communicates grip levels very well, but it is not suited for the timid. It's much safer (and a blast!) for drivers that are comfortable straddling the grip limit most of the time than for drivers that rarely go over 8-9/10ths. The latter ones will be the ones getting spooked when a set of circumstances takes them closer to 10/10ths and beyond in an instance.
For current owners that see themselves in the latter group, I suggest a car control clinic at one of the racing schools, few autocross sessions on slippery (street) tires, a skid pad session in the wet, or any other way to safely approach and get comfortable with 10/10ths grip in the car. It's where it's safest and it truly shines. The best track car bang for the buck in the market today, hands down.
EDIT: Hope I didn't just jinx myself. Counter-jinx: Car sucks and spins all the time.
It's the nominally 7-8/10ths folks that approach (their) 10/10ths TOO quickly that cause the skewed damage statistics, IMO.
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Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
10-29-2014, 09:29 PM
#40
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10-29-2014, 09:55 PM
#42
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That all sounds good to me!
10-29-2014, 10:07 PM
#43
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I'm never done learning.
Funny thing earlier this year Ron Savenor and I were discussing the uphill line with Simon kirby, and you would think that we would have it down since each of us has 250+ days there.
I'm in Love with this crazy sport.
Funny thing earlier this year Ron Savenor and I were discussing the uphill line with Simon kirby, and you would think that we would have it down since each of us has 250+ days there.
I'm in Love with this crazy sport.
10-29-2014, 10:18 PM
#44
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10-29-2014, 11:41 PM
#45
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I've actually seen more Caymans wrecked in the five years I've been doing this. The again, eyes do tend to roll when a GT3 meets the wall. It's as if the clock was always running on the inevitable...