E85 vs E10
11-13-2013, 09:16 PM
#1
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
E85 vs E10
hey, was hoping someone could explain to me the deal with e85 and E10 fuels.
basically, a friend has a race car from 2,3 years ago. it current runs E85. he has the option of changing it to E10. he was told he only needs to change the fuel regulator. a 500buck regulator. and then he could run E10.
he lives in the USA.
so my question is, shoudl he leave it E85 or convert to E10. he seemed to suggest he was told the E10 might generate more power.
i hate saying it, i just dont have that much experience or info on the fuels, e85 v e10, whats available when you go, lets say to a sebring pCa race, etc.
thoughts? ideas? primer?
basically, a friend has a race car from 2,3 years ago. it current runs E85. he has the option of changing it to E10. he was told he only needs to change the fuel regulator. a 500buck regulator. and then he could run E10.
he lives in the USA.
so my question is, shoudl he leave it E85 or convert to E10. he seemed to suggest he was told the E10 might generate more power.
i hate saying it, i just dont have that much experience or info on the fuels, e85 v e10, whats available when you go, lets say to a sebring pCa race, etc.
thoughts? ideas? primer?
11-13-2013, 09:48 PM
#2
Rennlist Member
E10 is gas you will find at most gas stations.
It is hard to find non-ethanol gas.
Because of its much lower price, and high octane (110-115) E-85 is a good alternative to race gas, but it has some drawbacks.
E-85 is normally used in high horsepower turbo cars, high compression drag cars ect.
A lot of guys are using it in high performance street car applications.
You can tune any engine for E85, but it does require specialized hoses and seals because of the high alcohol content. Because of the higher fuel delivery rate, usually the fuel pump,regulator and fuel injectors are not stock.
You burn about 25-30% more E85 vs pump/race gas.
E85 is not always available, so you would probably need your onw supply depending on the track.
http://www.enginebasics.com/Advanced...%20Basics.html
It is hard to find non-ethanol gas.
Because of its much lower price, and high octane (110-115) E-85 is a good alternative to race gas, but it has some drawbacks.
E-85 is normally used in high horsepower turbo cars, high compression drag cars ect.
A lot of guys are using it in high performance street car applications.
You can tune any engine for E85, but it does require specialized hoses and seals because of the high alcohol content. Because of the higher fuel delivery rate, usually the fuel pump,regulator and fuel injectors are not stock.
You burn about 25-30% more E85 vs pump/race gas.
E85 is not always available, so you would probably need your onw supply depending on the track.
http://www.enginebasics.com/Advanced...%20Basics.html
11-13-2013, 09:50 PM
#3
Rennlist Member
Assuming they're basically the same or similar to the E10 / E85 fuels we have down here, no, he won't get more power out of E10. E10 is basically 10% Ethanol mixed with 90% pump fuel. E85 being 85% Ethanol and 15% pump. To add, if he's running E85 race fuel rather than that which is available at the pump, it will generally be more consistent in it's Ethanol content. E85 from the pump varies down in % of Ethanol based on the season. So it can go down to as low as E70 from what I'm led to believe.
Ethanol will allow more advance ign and burn cooler therefore offering the potential for greater power. It's especially popular in Turbo / Supercharged cars. The downside is that you use approximately 25-30% more fuel therefore larger injectors and fuel pumps are generally required. For your friend to switch back to E10 he could probably just get a re-tune. However not sure why he'd make the switch? Sounds like he's been advised incorrectly imho.
Ethanol will allow more advance ign and burn cooler therefore offering the potential for greater power. It's especially popular in Turbo / Supercharged cars. The downside is that you use approximately 25-30% more fuel therefore larger injectors and fuel pumps are generally required. For your friend to switch back to E10 he could probably just get a re-tune. However not sure why he'd make the switch? Sounds like he's been advised incorrectly imho.
11-14-2013, 10:28 AM
#4
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
thx guys. here is what someone from PMNA's engine/tune group that someone sent me thought related to a different but similar car. I guess my concern and the reasons one might desire to go to something othe than E85 is:
1. the corrosive effects of E85 on the fuel system. what steps would have to be taken to offset this? just drain the fuel from cell and lines after each event?
2. that apparently Porsche has a tune of greater power for regular gas. or better stated, they might have an unrestricted tune for regular gas while they never developed such a tune for e85 since the series in which it ran required restrictors thus the tunes they have are with restrictors.
----------
There are three types of fuel that I deal with here is a quick description.
Regular gas = fuels that are a minimum of 98 octane and generally don't include ethanol for example GA and World Challenge use Sunoco GTX260. This is the fuel that we use to run all engines on our dyno. It is also the fuel that our unrestricted file is based upon. This is what you should use with the map that I will program your ECU when I get it.
E10 = IMSA VP100E this is the fuel that we use in the IMSA GT3 Challenge, GTC and for non E85 RSR's (of which we don't have any this season). If you run this on your carthen it needs a different map. We don't have an unrestricted map for E10! but hardware remains the same as regular gas.
E85 = VP E85R this is the fuel that we currently run in the ALMS with all of our RSR's. For that car, we don't have and unrestricted map for E85. E85 also requires a conversion from 5 bar to and 8 bar fuel system, which includes fuel pumps and the fuel pressure regulator. I do not recommend this for you as E85 is corrosive and requires regular maintenance of the fuel system.
Any other fuels that you choose to use are untested by us and therefore I cannot say if they are suitable or not. My advice is to stick with Sunoco GTX260 and you won't go far wrong.
I can go over the nuances over the phone, but the best thing to do is read the manual thoroughly, then when you are plugged into the car and are wanting to go through the setup I can be available by phone to help.
.
1. the corrosive effects of E85 on the fuel system. what steps would have to be taken to offset this? just drain the fuel from cell and lines after each event?
2. that apparently Porsche has a tune of greater power for regular gas. or better stated, they might have an unrestricted tune for regular gas while they never developed such a tune for e85 since the series in which it ran required restrictors thus the tunes they have are with restrictors.
----------
There are three types of fuel that I deal with here is a quick description.
Regular gas = fuels that are a minimum of 98 octane and generally don't include ethanol for example GA and World Challenge use Sunoco GTX260. This is the fuel that we use to run all engines on our dyno. It is also the fuel that our unrestricted file is based upon. This is what you should use with the map that I will program your ECU when I get it.
E10 = IMSA VP100E this is the fuel that we use in the IMSA GT3 Challenge, GTC and for non E85 RSR's (of which we don't have any this season). If you run this on your carthen it needs a different map. We don't have an unrestricted map for E10! but hardware remains the same as regular gas.
E85 = VP E85R this is the fuel that we currently run in the ALMS with all of our RSR's. For that car, we don't have and unrestricted map for E85. E85 also requires a conversion from 5 bar to and 8 bar fuel system, which includes fuel pumps and the fuel pressure regulator. I do not recommend this for you as E85 is corrosive and requires regular maintenance of the fuel system.
Any other fuels that you choose to use are untested by us and therefore I cannot say if they are suitable or not. My advice is to stick with Sunoco GTX260 and you won't go far wrong.
I can go over the nuances over the phone, but the best thing to do is read the manual thoroughly, then when you are plugged into the car and are wanting to go through the setup I can be available by phone to help.
.
11-14-2013, 02:47 PM
#5
Rennlist Member
thx guys. here is what someone from PMNA's engine/tune group that someone sent me thought related to a different but similar car. I guess my concern and the reasons one might desire to go to something othe than E85 is:
1. the corrosive effects of E85 on the fuel system. what steps would have to be taken to offset this? just drain the fuel from cell and lines after each event?
2. that apparently Porsche has a tune of greater power for regular gas. or better stated, they might have an unrestricted tune for regular gas while they never developed such a tune for e85 since the series in which it ran required restrictors thus the tunes they have are with restrictors.
----------
There are three types of fuel that I deal with here is a quick description.
Regular gas = fuels that are a minimum of 98 octane and generally don't include ethanol for example GA and World Challenge use Sunoco GTX260. This is the fuel that we use to run all engines on our dyno. It is also the fuel that our unrestricted file is based upon. This is what you should use with the map that I will program your ECU when I get it.
E10 = IMSA VP100E this is the fuel that we use in the IMSA GT3 Challenge, GTC and for non E85 RSR's (of which we don't have any this season). If you run this on your carthen it needs a different map. We don't have an unrestricted map for E10! but hardware remains the same as regular gas.
E85 = VP E85R this is the fuel that we currently run in the ALMS with all of our RSR's. For that car, we don't have and unrestricted map for E85. E85 also requires a conversion from 5 bar to and 8 bar fuel system, which includes fuel pumps and the fuel pressure regulator. I do not recommend this for you as E85 is corrosive and requires regular maintenance of the fuel system.
Any other fuels that you choose to use are untested by us and therefore I cannot say if they are suitable or not. My advice is to stick with Sunoco GTX260 and you won't go far wrong.
I can go over the nuances over the phone, but the best thing to do is read the manual thoroughly, then when you are plugged into the car and are wanting to go through the setup I can be available by phone to help.
.
1. the corrosive effects of E85 on the fuel system. what steps would have to be taken to offset this? just drain the fuel from cell and lines after each event?
2. that apparently Porsche has a tune of greater power for regular gas. or better stated, they might have an unrestricted tune for regular gas while they never developed such a tune for e85 since the series in which it ran required restrictors thus the tunes they have are with restrictors.
----------
There are three types of fuel that I deal with here is a quick description.
Regular gas = fuels that are a minimum of 98 octane and generally don't include ethanol for example GA and World Challenge use Sunoco GTX260. This is the fuel that we use to run all engines on our dyno. It is also the fuel that our unrestricted file is based upon. This is what you should use with the map that I will program your ECU when I get it.
E10 = IMSA VP100E this is the fuel that we use in the IMSA GT3 Challenge, GTC and for non E85 RSR's (of which we don't have any this season). If you run this on your carthen it needs a different map. We don't have an unrestricted map for E10! but hardware remains the same as regular gas.
E85 = VP E85R this is the fuel that we currently run in the ALMS with all of our RSR's. For that car, we don't have and unrestricted map for E85. E85 also requires a conversion from 5 bar to and 8 bar fuel system, which includes fuel pumps and the fuel pressure regulator. I do not recommend this for you as E85 is corrosive and requires regular maintenance of the fuel system.
Any other fuels that you choose to use are untested by us and therefore I cannot say if they are suitable or not. My advice is to stick with Sunoco GTX260 and you won't go far wrong.
I can go over the nuances over the phone, but the best thing to do is read the manual thoroughly, then when you are plugged into the car and are wanting to go through the setup I can be available by phone to help.
.
Once you have converted your fuel system to an E85 fuel, you should not have any problems with it. Most fuel cells out in the market are aluminum or plastic, so rust should not be a problem. Coupled with stainless steel fuel lines corrosion should not be an issue.
11-14-2013, 03:10 PM
#6
Rennlist Member
We have had issues while using the same fuel as the Aussie Supercar V8's down here. While it's Ethanol consistency is meant to be spot on, we have had problems with it gumming up injector baskets and fuel filters. This necessitated swapping out injs at the track and eventually running without the baskets. I think it may be a bad batch but we will be flushing the car with pump fuel at the end of each meeting. Prior to this recent development we had no issues running E85 as far as the corrosion problems that are bandied about. I think there is a bit of fear mongering out there re E85.
Looks like the E10 is a race fuel , not pump, that your friend has the chance to use. It will need a re-tune of course but it sounds like he's been given good advice from the PMNA guy.
Looks like the E10 is a race fuel , not pump, that your friend has the chance to use. It will need a re-tune of course but it sounds like he's been given good advice from the PMNA guy.
