Notices
Racing & Drivers Education Forum
Sponsored by:
Sponsored by:

Huge crash at VIR

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 10-06-2013, 02:19 PM
  #16  
Nizer
Rennlist Member
 
Nizer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Wishing I Was At The Track
Posts: 13,597
Received 1,834 Likes on 952 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by ProCoach
...or forced the issue to make the GTC car back down and optimize his entry to the left sweep before climbing the hill. In essence, he drove into Cisneros and forced him off the road.....
This.
Old 10-06-2013, 02:35 PM
  #17  
ajcjr
Rennlist Member
 
ajcjr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 2,155
Received 43 Likes on 31 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by ProCoach
Scott, the normal line is full drivers right until after the end of the North Course cut-through road.

Cisneros in the slower GTC car is more than a car width off the edge of the road, akin to driving down the middle of it, reducing the options of Holzer in the faster GT car to get by.

I was ready to think that the GTC car was in the wrong because of that until I saw the tangent of the GT car immediately before contact moving AWAY from the left edge and towards the GTC car.

Now, I agree with you. An apparent error on Marco's part.

It appears the GTC car was going straight (even if he was out of proper position) and that the GT car either thought he was clear (or going to be) or forced the issue to make the GTC car back down and optimize his entry to the left sweep before climbing the hill. In essence, he drove into Cisneros and forced him off the road. The contact was side-to-side...

Bad deal, all around.
Being a coach, im sure you would tell any driver to have some patience at VIR, there are plenty of places to pass (especially in a faster car). Why would marco push the issue, i know its racing but someone could have been killed or seriously hurt (racer, flagger, camera man).
Old 10-06-2013, 03:08 PM
  #18  
analogmike
Rennlist Member
 
analogmike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Danbury, CT, USA
Posts: 3,912
Received 103 Likes on 43 Posts
Default

I have a feeling that Marco thought Cisneros would lift a lot and let him get by and on line. A lot of GTC drivers will do that, but not all of them. Very tough position to be in and it was at about the worst place on the track to have that issue.
Old 10-06-2013, 03:43 PM
  #19  
Coochas
Rennlist Member
 
Coochas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: 01776
Posts: 9,955
Received 426 Likes on 221 Posts
Default

Look at this CNN story: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...rial&hpt=hp_t2

"Spectators Narrowly Dodge Airborne Car in Scary Crash."

Really? Spectators????????
Old 10-06-2013, 03:57 PM
  #20  
cavlino
Rennlist Member
 
cavlino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 1,297
Received 13 Likes on 12 Posts
Default

Sad that CNN have to stretch the truth to get more readers.
Old 10-06-2013, 05:25 PM
  #21  
Matt Romanowski
Rennlist Hoonigan
which cost no drachmas
Lifetime Rennlist
Member


Rennlist
Site Sponsor
 
Matt Romanowski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Manchester, NH
Posts: 12,599
Received 912 Likes on 556 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by TXE36
Ah. Learn something new every day. I suppose it would be difficult to put out a yellow before an incident without looking down to the next flag station. Now, what about those times I've seen both flaggers in a flag station with their backs to the track? .

-Mike
That is when you can measure the quality of the flaggers pretty quickly.
Old 10-06-2013, 05:26 PM
  #22  
ProCoach
Rennlist
Basic Site Sponsor
 
ProCoach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Durham, NC and Virginia International Raceway
Posts: 18,962
Received 3,054 Likes on 1,791 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by ajcjr
Being a coach, im sure you would tell any driver to have some patience at VIR, there are plenty of places to pass (especially in a faster car).

Why would marco push the issue, i know its racing but someone could have been killed or seriously hurt (racer, flagger, camera man).
That's a particularly difficult place, because there is SUCH a difference in people's comfort levels through the Uphill Esses that there are serious speed differentials into and through it. I have seen some VERY big accidents there, because people "forced the issue." That said, the GT car could have tucked in, made a run and passed on the left side into South Bend, a very good and easy place to make a pass without losing too much time.

I don't think Cisneros or Holzer intentionally wrecked, but the pecking order in multi-class pro racing would lead a GT driver (especially a factory-backed one) to want to get by a slower class GTC car and take significant chances to do it, especially if he saw the GT cars in front getting a clear shot through the Uphill Esses and he had to wait.

I would think that Holzer thought Cisneros would have seen the GT class car coming up on him and would have been surprised that Cisneros was NOT in the proper position (right of center, instead of drifting into mid-track), but that doesn't excuse Holzer from turning the wheel right, towards Cisneros.

It's a 2 hour, 45-minute race, and even in my coaching for the 40-minute ITC or 50-minute Lamborghini Super Trofeo races, on the radio I constantly reinforced with my clients the virtues of patience...

Just glad everyone is ok, ESPECIALLY the workers and camera guy.
__________________
-Peter Krause
www.peterkrause.net
www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway






















Old 10-06-2013, 08:04 PM
  #23  
Nizer
Rennlist Member
 
Nizer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Wishing I Was At The Track
Posts: 13,597
Received 1,834 Likes on 952 Posts
Default

2hrs of great coverage on ESPN2, with more focus on GT/GTC than P1/P2. Once again far more entertaining than watching F1 tire management parade.
Old 10-06-2013, 09:57 PM
  #24  
Racerrob
Rennlist Member
 
Racerrob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,311
Received 17 Likes on 12 Posts
Default

I wondered if something broke on the white car? It was such a poor move otherwise.
Old 10-06-2013, 11:27 PM
  #25  
fleadh
Burning Brakes
 
fleadh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Redwood City, California
Posts: 922
Received 46 Likes on 23 Posts
Default

Without being in the car and just from watching the video and driving in that race, I can't fault Marco alone in that crash. While either driver could have clearly done something different to avoid it, it was well within the norm for that event at that location.

Marco was along side the GTC car for most of the straight. I heard some people at the track thinking Eduardo was trying to block the GT car to keep track position.. but to me it looked like he was creeping over while looking in his mirrors (ie: target fixation, not blocking/defending). Not sure if that was the case or not. But even if he was trying to defend against the pass it seemed to me that the GT car was far enough up along side that it's reasonable to me for Marco to assume the other driver sees him (it wasn't a last minute dive to the apex).

On a scale of 1-10 for risky passes I experienced by faster traffic in the race at that location (and into T14 where even out GTC car is > 160MPH) I'd only rate that maybe a 5 at most. Overtaking happens like that all day long...

-mike
Old 10-06-2013, 11:31 PM
  #26  
ilko
Agent Orange
Rennlist Member
 
ilko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 16,187
Received 555 Likes on 199 Posts
Default

A bit of a contrarian view from me on this accident. It was the flagger's fault, assuming the Cup car didn't see the RSR. Because if he did, he should've lifted. The flagger was supposed to warn the GTC drivers of approaching faster traffic and there was no blue flag waving. The guy was casually holding it. I don't see this as Holzer's fault.
Old 10-06-2013, 11:37 PM
  #27  
winders
Race Car
 
winders's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: San Martin, CA
Posts: 4,546
Received 857 Likes on 426 Posts
Default

Mike,

We must be watching different videos. The RSR was at most one third of a car length in front on the Cup Car. The driver of the RSR had to have seen the Cup car right next to him. If he didn't, well, that's just wrong. The Cup Car was holding his line. The RSR moving over like that afforded no time to the Cup Car driver to do anything. He was along for the ride at that point.

Even if the Cup Car should not have been there, what the RSR driver did caused the wreck. He should have left the Cup Car racing room and NOT run into him.

Scott
Old 10-07-2013, 12:19 AM
  #28  
jcs_911
Racer
 
jcs_911's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 366
Received 27 Likes on 15 Posts
Default

Sure looks like that corner station is not well placed. A slightly different trajectory and that GTC car lands in the bunker with those people having no place to run (being a bunker surrounded by barriers and tires).
Old 10-07-2013, 03:41 AM
  #29  
ProCoach
Rennlist
Basic Site Sponsor
 
ProCoach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Durham, NC and Virginia International Raceway
Posts: 18,962
Received 3,054 Likes on 1,791 Posts
Default

Nice drive, Mike. Came by a few times but I missed you.
Old 10-07-2013, 10:13 AM
  #30  
Veloce Raptor
Rennlist Member
 
Veloce Raptor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Guess...
Posts: 41,752
Received 1,539 Likes on 812 Posts
Default

Patience, patience, patience.

Because there is ample evidence, including this incident, of why its absence leads to unhappy endings.


Quick Reply: Huge crash at VIR



All times are GMT -3. The time now is 08:59 AM.