Cones or no cones?
10-04-2012, 02:12 PM
#31
After a long absence from the track I entered a DE with RTR and was put in Green group. The first day there were cones which I had never seen before in my track experience but found them helpful. The second day they were removed but in the classroom we were taught to look (with a Powerpoint presentation) for various physical elements on or near the track to use as reference points. Worked for me. Today I always tell my students that the cones are approximately in the right position but may no be in the correct position for their car or driving style and early on discourage driving from cone to cone. I think they are useful for beginners but don't assume that the student knows what turn in, apex, and track out means.
10-04-2012, 02:26 PM
#32
Rennlist Member
you say "turn in 5 feet before the cone"
My experience has been with green students they need reference points until they become more advanced so why not give them to them.
The challenge with this topic is that cones don't make sense for all drivers but you can't go around putting up and taking down cones for every run group.
That means you go to the lowest common denominator and the first principal is safety. I believe (personal opinion), cones make the green guys safer.
My experience has been with green students they need reference points until they become more advanced so why not give them to them.
The challenge with this topic is that cones don't make sense for all drivers but you can't go around putting up and taking down cones for every run group.
That means you go to the lowest common denominator and the first principal is safety. I believe (personal opinion), cones make the green guys safer.
I agree 100% on safety being the most important thing, that is why you as an instructor are in the car, to make sure they are safe. Cones don't make greenies safer, you, the instructors, make greenies safer. -(My Personal opinion)
10-04-2012, 10:47 PM
#35
Race Director
while I do not like "cones" for apex-trackout goals.....I do like brake markers....since I use them for my turn in reference.....after that I always aim for the trackout edging....I look at trackout edging like "hints".....since the people who designed the track know way more than me and put those there for a reason....
10-05-2012, 12:32 AM
#36
Maybe someone should invent an collapsable/expanding cone that is controlled by a remote device so they can be flipped up and down with a flick of a switch... Hmmm, any clever inventor types out there?
I also agree with the comments about instructors are there to guide our students and we can't (shouldn't) rely on cones to do our jobs.
One comment I didn't see yet is about students who desperately try to avoid hitting the track-out/exit cone so much that they actually pinch the car off at the exit and spin it. I've seen more than one demonstration of that...
10-05-2012, 08:38 AM
#37
Still plays with cars.
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Member
Ross,
We use cones - mostly for the benefit of instructors teaching raw novices. It does make it easier to get them around the track the first day. At the same time we also teach drivers to look into the corner and NOT at the cones
Experienced instructors will simply tell a novice (at the right time) to look left or look right and magically the car is on the line without benefit of cones.
At three day events if the weather is good we like to remove all the cones. Seeing people turn in late or early is a good indication of those who haven't learned to "see" the corner and the line.
As to exit cones, we place them on the outside of the rumble strips - if you nick them with a rear wheel, you're out too far
Best,
We use cones - mostly for the benefit of instructors teaching raw novices. It does make it easier to get them around the track the first day. At the same time we also teach drivers to look into the corner and NOT at the cones
Experienced instructors will simply tell a novice (at the right time) to look left or look right and magically the car is on the line without benefit of cones. At three day events if the weather is good we like to remove all the cones. Seeing people turn in late or early is a good indication of those who haven't learned to "see" the corner and the line.
As to exit cones, we place them on the outside of the rumble strips - if you nick them with a rear wheel, you're out too far
Best,
10-05-2012, 09:24 AM
#39
Rennlist Member
I teach looking thru the corners and having a constant scan of the track, think panoramic view, not picture window.
As BR posted, magically, the cars seem find and be on "the line".
10-05-2012, 09:58 AM
#40
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No. although it would be silly to presume that people don't find some on their own and use them.
I teach looking thru the corners and having a constant scan of the track, think panoramic view, not picture window.
As BR posted, magically, the cars seem find and be on "the line".
I teach looking thru the corners and having a constant scan of the track, think panoramic view, not picture window.
As BR posted, magically, the cars seem find and be on "the line".
I think the Professor says it very well here https://rennlist.com/forums/1865854-post11.html
10-05-2012, 11:48 AM
#41
I just don't get it why cones would be needed on a race track in an actual race ?!
You could see them even in a IMSA GT3 Cup event in Canada this season. Really curious to learn why they were required. Didn't the drivers have enough practice sessions even if it was their first time at Calabogie ?
You could see them even in a IMSA GT3 Cup event in Canada this season. Really curious to learn why they were required. Didn't the drivers have enough practice sessions even if it was their first time at Calabogie ?
10-05-2012, 04:19 PM
#42
Rennlist Member
You don't get the consistency at first ! Do you think anyone masters any new sport immediately ? Think you'll get a hole in one your first day golfing ? Heck no, it's a process of slow learning and mastering various techniques and skill sets.
The lack of consistency is precisely how you learn when you've turned in early,late,missed apex track out etc. - and of course the instructor in the car is right there doing what they are suppose to be with keeping you safe and not allowing you to go too far off line without the proper redirection as needed. He also offers opinions when you are off turn in, late or early, and off Apex or track out. Each time the instructor redirects the student learns and adjusts for next time.
If cones were all it took, and all it was about was to teach a student to learn how to do this, then I could paint a freaking line all the way around the track and they wouldn't even need cones !
You learn to scan the track and drive the track and corner by looking thru them. When I am instructing a student my goal is that I have taught them how to learn/drive ANY race track, or any corner for that matter, not just have taught them how to drive the track we happen to be on that weekend. This ends up helping real world driving on street as well as race track.
10-05-2012, 05:57 PM
#43
It is funny to read this, the " people only learn a single way, the way I teach them" method has very little truth to it. People learn the same things in different ways, just like in school so if the cones benefit some folks early on learning a DE line ( not a race line ), why not have them. You, as instructors, can tell your students if they are in the wrong place or to just ignore them based on their cars and drivers ability.
10-05-2012, 05:59 PM
#44
Still plays with cars.
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Viking, I agree!
10-05-2012, 09:52 PM
#45
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That's EXACTLY the point !
You don't get the consistency at first ! Do you think anyone masters any new sport immediately ? Think you'll get a hole in one your first day golfing ? Heck no, it's a process of slow learning and mastering various techniques and skill sets.
The lack of consistency is precisely how you learn when you've turned in early,late,missed apex track out etc. - and of course the instructor in the car is right there doing what they are suppose to be with keeping you safe and not allowing you to go too far off line without the proper redirection as needed. He also offers opinions when you are off turn in, late or early, and off Apex or track out. Each time the instructor redirects the student learns and adjusts for next time.
If cones were all it took, and all it was about was to teach a student to learn how to do this, then I could paint a freaking line all the way around the track and they wouldn't even need cones !
You learn to scan the track and drive the track and corner by looking thru them. When I am instructing a student my goal is that I have taught them how to learn/drive ANY race track, or any corner for that matter, not just have taught them how to drive the track we happen to be on that weekend. This ends up helping real world driving on street as well as race track.
You don't get the consistency at first ! Do you think anyone masters any new sport immediately ? Think you'll get a hole in one your first day golfing ? Heck no, it's a process of slow learning and mastering various techniques and skill sets.
The lack of consistency is precisely how you learn when you've turned in early,late,missed apex track out etc. - and of course the instructor in the car is right there doing what they are suppose to be with keeping you safe and not allowing you to go too far off line without the proper redirection as needed. He also offers opinions when you are off turn in, late or early, and off Apex or track out. Each time the instructor redirects the student learns and adjusts for next time.
If cones were all it took, and all it was about was to teach a student to learn how to do this, then I could paint a freaking line all the way around the track and they wouldn't even need cones !
You learn to scan the track and drive the track and corner by looking thru them. When I am instructing a student my goal is that I have taught them how to learn/drive ANY race track, or any corner for that matter, not just have taught them how to drive the track we happen to be on that weekend. This ends up helping real world driving on street as well as race track.
I'm playing devils advocate here. I completely agree that you shouldn't drive point to point, but looking ahead, using ocular vision, and creating smooth lines through the track, while using references, is what we are all doing. Reference points are not just cones - they are all different things.
Without a reference point, how do you know if you hit an apex?
