driving Front engine, front wheel drive...quickly!
08-20-2012, 05:24 PM
#1
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
driving Front engine, front wheel drive...quickly!
I was talking to a friend the other day, and came to the realization that ALL of my track time is in a mid or rear engined car (Formula Ford, Lotus Elise, various 911's).
I have no idea how to get speed out of a front wheel drive, front engined car....a skill set which might come in handy later this year (I've been recruited into a ChumpCar team).
any general advice from the brain trust out there?
I have no idea how to get speed out of a front wheel drive, front engined car....a skill set which might come in handy later this year (I've been recruited into a ChumpCar team).
any general advice from the brain trust out there?
08-20-2012, 05:38 PM
#2
Rennlist Member
Big front tires help.
Seriously, I'm not talking from experience, but I'd guess that you'll have to get weight on the front wheels to get rotation. This may mean trail braking more aggressively or even modifying your line to anticipate more understeer while you accelerate out of the corner.
Seriously, I'm not talking from experience, but I'd guess that you'll have to get weight on the front wheels to get rotation. This may mean trail braking more aggressively or even modifying your line to anticipate more understeer while you accelerate out of the corner.
08-20-2012, 09:14 PM
#4
Drifting
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This is your excuse to make a flying visit to Germany to attend some of Audi's Driving Experience courses.
To get rid of understeer on entry, back off the throttle a bit and unwind the steering until the car starts to turn in again.
Before turning into a corner make a slight counter turn and then smoothly and rapidly turn in, this makes the car nice and pointy.
In practice, drive with the ESP on, everytime it goes off, it is telling you you are doing something wrong. Never hold an unchanging correction for more than half a second, adjust it all the time, that is faster and stops the ESP going off.
Audi teaches folk how to do all this stuff, frequently on F1 tracks.
R+C
To get rid of understeer on entry, back off the throttle a bit and unwind the steering until the car starts to turn in again.
Before turning into a corner make a slight counter turn and then smoothly and rapidly turn in, this makes the car nice and pointy.
In practice, drive with the ESP on, everytime it goes off, it is telling you you are doing something wrong. Never hold an unchanging correction for more than half a second, adjust it all the time, that is faster and stops the ESP going off.
Audi teaches folk how to do all this stuff, frequently on F1 tracks.
R+C
08-20-2012, 09:34 PM
#5
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
This is your excuse to make a flying visit to Germany to attend some of Audi's Driving Experience courses.
To get rid of understeer on entry, back off the throttle a bit and unwind the steering until the car starts to turn in again.
Before turning into a corner make a slight counter turn and then smoothly and rapidly turn in, this makes the car nice and pointy.
In practice, drive with the ESP on, everytime it goes off, it is telling you you are doing something wrong. Never hold an unchanging correction for more than half a second, adjust it all the time, that is faster and stops the ESP going off.
Audi teaches folk how to do all this stuff, frequently on F1 tracks.
R+C
To get rid of understeer on entry, back off the throttle a bit and unwind the steering until the car starts to turn in again.
Before turning into a corner make a slight counter turn and then smoothly and rapidly turn in, this makes the car nice and pointy.
In practice, drive with the ESP on, everytime it goes off, it is telling you you are doing something wrong. Never hold an unchanging correction for more than half a second, adjust it all the time, that is faster and stops the ESP going off.
Audi teaches folk how to do all this stuff, frequently on F1 tracks.
R+C
I've been messing around with a FF car on my simulator and I think what you said about entry understeer is correct. I'm not so sure about the Scandinavian flick into corners on dry asphalt though
Also, at least on the sim I'm getting a lot of trailing throttle over steer in fast corners (?)
08-20-2012, 09:46 PM
#6
Rennlist Member
I was talking to a friend the other day, and came to the realization that ALL of my track time is in a mid or rear engined car (Formula Ford, Lotus Elise, various 911's).
I have no idea how to get speed out of a front wheel drive, front engined car....a skill set which might come in handy later this year (I've been recruited into a ChumpCar team).
any general advice from the brain trust out there?
I have no idea how to get speed out of a front wheel drive, front engined car....a skill set which might come in handy later this year (I've been recruited into a ChumpCar team).
any general advice from the brain trust out there?
Where will you be racing?
https://vimeo.com/6156642
https://vimeo.com/6156642
08-20-2012, 09:51 PM
#7
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
My experience going from only RWD/Rear Engine 911 experience to a FWD/Front engine Mazda (323 and MX6)....... You will feel like you are a HERO and can do anything! Great fun.
Where will you be racing?
https://vimeo.com/6156642
https://vimeo.com/6156642
Where will you be racing?
https://vimeo.com/6156642
https://vimeo.com/6156642
Road America and maybe Road Atlanta. I think at Road America we'll be lucky to be sub 3:00 a lap!
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08-21-2012, 09:27 AM
#8
Burning Brakes
Rent a Honda Civic or Mazda 3 for the weekend and flog the hell out of it?
My first DE (and N=2) was driving my Acura RSX Type-S. It did surprisingly well. I got passed a lot on the straights but I actually gained in the corners. This was green group, however. The more gas I gave it in the corners, the more the steering wheel would try to straighten, but if I cranked on it hard enough, the FWD woud pull it around the corner.
The one thing it did not like to do was brake too late, and even then more throttle was the correction.
My first DE (and N=2) was driving my Acura RSX Type-S. It did surprisingly well. I got passed a lot on the straights but I actually gained in the corners. This was green group, however. The more gas I gave it in the corners, the more the steering wheel would try to straighten, but if I cranked on it hard enough, the FWD woud pull it around the corner.
The one thing it did not like to do was brake too late, and even then more throttle was the correction.
08-21-2012, 10:25 AM
#10
where are you from? I've got tons of experience setting up and racing FWD cars. I've got two FWD cars in my stable; a fast-classed car (EG Honda Civic with K24 turbo power - 400+ whp and 2400 lbs) and a slow-classed car (Ford Probe GT - 160 whp and 2700 lbs). The Probe will be closer to your Chumps effort. some tricks/tips:
- as was said before, remove front swaybar. add huge adjustable rear swaybar.
- on the Probe, I'm running 700lb/in springs in front, 1100 in rear
- 3.5 deg neg camber in front, -1 in rear. 1/16 total toe out in front, 0 in rear. (this on Hoosier R6).
driving wise, it drives very similiar to an older low powered 911. the plan here when driving is to try to keep the front wheels as straight as possible, and feed in the power as early as possible and keep full power as long as possible. I don't subscribe to the 'throw it in and jerk it around' version of driving a FWD; my cars don't need (or want) that. Instead, they are set up so that I enter a turn either trailbraking slightly, or lifting a bit til it starts to REALLY turn in (rear end rotating, but not broadsliding). then immediately feeding in throttle, opening the wheel, clipping the apex and now full power, unwinding and letting the car drive as 'straight' as possible to the exit. on these FWD cars, you have to try to keep the front wheels straight as you can (my Probe has an open diff, and the Honda has a street oriented Torsen); you want the rear loose enough to help with the turning, so you can feed power in early and smoothly to 'catch' the car and straighten it out.
huge tip #2 -- you have to protect your front tires!!!!! they are doing EVERYTHING -- accelerating, braking, turning. If you don't protect them, and you overdrive the car, you will quickly overheat and kill the outside front, and terminal understeer will be the result. It takes patience, and skill, and understanding to realize the line between 'going fast and keeping the front tires under you' and wiping out the front tires in the first 10 laps.
tip #3 -- make sure your front brakes are adequate. I designed my own BBK for the Probe, and the Honda uses a frankenstien setup. the front brakes do EVERYTHING; the rear pretty much zilch.
feel free to ask me any questions you like; I'd be glad to help.
Todd
ReidSpeed
- as was said before, remove front swaybar. add huge adjustable rear swaybar.
- on the Probe, I'm running 700lb/in springs in front, 1100 in rear
- 3.5 deg neg camber in front, -1 in rear. 1/16 total toe out in front, 0 in rear. (this on Hoosier R6).
driving wise, it drives very similiar to an older low powered 911. the plan here when driving is to try to keep the front wheels as straight as possible, and feed in the power as early as possible and keep full power as long as possible. I don't subscribe to the 'throw it in and jerk it around' version of driving a FWD; my cars don't need (or want) that. Instead, they are set up so that I enter a turn either trailbraking slightly, or lifting a bit til it starts to REALLY turn in (rear end rotating, but not broadsliding). then immediately feeding in throttle, opening the wheel, clipping the apex and now full power, unwinding and letting the car drive as 'straight' as possible to the exit. on these FWD cars, you have to try to keep the front wheels straight as you can (my Probe has an open diff, and the Honda has a street oriented Torsen); you want the rear loose enough to help with the turning, so you can feed power in early and smoothly to 'catch' the car and straighten it out.
huge tip #2 -- you have to protect your front tires!!!!! they are doing EVERYTHING -- accelerating, braking, turning. If you don't protect them, and you overdrive the car, you will quickly overheat and kill the outside front, and terminal understeer will be the result. It takes patience, and skill, and understanding to realize the line between 'going fast and keeping the front tires under you' and wiping out the front tires in the first 10 laps.
tip #3 -- make sure your front brakes are adequate. I designed my own BBK for the Probe, and the Honda uses a frankenstien setup. the front brakes do EVERYTHING; the rear pretty much zilch.
feel free to ask me any questions you like; I'd be glad to help.
Todd
ReidSpeed
08-21-2012, 11:32 AM
#11
08-21-2012, 01:18 PM
#12
I agree with what Todd said above. I will also state the obvious: RWD, FWD, AWD, front engine, mid engine, rear engine... they all have 4 tires. Yes, with a FWD car, the front tires are doing almost everything, and you have to respect them for that. But a 4-wheel car is a 4-wheel car.
My point is there is as much difference between driving a Formula Ford and a 911 (both RWD cars!) as there is between a Lotus and a Honda. It all comes down to managing the weight to your advantage and keeping the front wheels pointing straight.
When someone says you have to keep the front wheels pointing straight in a FWD, I shake my head and wonder, "Oh, then in a RWD car you don't?" Of course you do. Some will say it's more important in the FWD - but it's not more important if you want to be fast in the RWD car. It doesn't matter what kind of car it is, the more you keep the front wheels pointing straight, the faster you'll be.
Here's my advice (again, adding to what Todd said): Get in a FWD car and learn to adapt to it - practice. The timing and rate of release of the brakes will play a big role (as it does in any other car), the crispness and timing of your initial turn-in and unwinding of the wheel will play a big role (as it does in any other car), your line will play a big role (as it does in any other car), your level of patience with the car will play a big role (as it does in any other car)... You have to play with all of these and more to adapt to what the car needs. Some FWD cars like to have a little flick on entry, and some hate it (same is true with some RWD cars).
Every time this topic comes up (and that's a lot!), I expect someone to say that FWD cars are so different that you should steer it with your nose and use the pedals with your knees. They're not that much different. Adapt your driving just like you would with any other car, and don't make excuses about it being a FWD. And have fun!
My point is there is as much difference between driving a Formula Ford and a 911 (both RWD cars!) as there is between a Lotus and a Honda. It all comes down to managing the weight to your advantage and keeping the front wheels pointing straight.
When someone says you have to keep the front wheels pointing straight in a FWD, I shake my head and wonder, "Oh, then in a RWD car you don't?" Of course you do. Some will say it's more important in the FWD - but it's not more important if you want to be fast in the RWD car. It doesn't matter what kind of car it is, the more you keep the front wheels pointing straight, the faster you'll be.
Here's my advice (again, adding to what Todd said): Get in a FWD car and learn to adapt to it - practice. The timing and rate of release of the brakes will play a big role (as it does in any other car), the crispness and timing of your initial turn-in and unwinding of the wheel will play a big role (as it does in any other car), your line will play a big role (as it does in any other car), your level of patience with the car will play a big role (as it does in any other car)... You have to play with all of these and more to adapt to what the car needs. Some FWD cars like to have a little flick on entry, and some hate it (same is true with some RWD cars).
Every time this topic comes up (and that's a lot!), I expect someone to say that FWD cars are so different that you should steer it with your nose and use the pedals with your knees.
They're not that much different. Adapt your driving just like you would with any other car, and don't make excuses about it being a FWD. And have fun!
08-21-2012, 01:42 PM
#13
Drifting
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........
I've been messing around with a FF car on my simulator and I think what you said about entry understeer is correct. I'm not so sure about the Scandinavian flick into corners on dry asphalt though
Also, at least on the sim I'm getting a lot of trailing throttle over steer in fast corners (?)
Mid range power adjustment in long early apex corners can be a little tricky and require sensitive throttle control.
When I get into a FWD/AWD car after driving a 911, I have to be consciously less digital with my use of the throttle on track.
R+C
08-21-2012, 01:59 PM
#14
I race a 911 E class and recently raced a Ford Contour in a Chump car race. There was no practice or qualifying, so my first time in the seat was at the race start.
Maybe it was just the car I was driving, (which as a Chump Car, was not as nicely set up as my race car) but it had a big push on exit. My brain told me to brake, turn in, get on the gas, but I found that I could use more speed on entry and when I got a push, I could back off the throttle to get more front turn. I was not used to getting off the gas part way thru a turn.... My chump car really struggled in a carousel.
Trail braking was more aggressive with the front wheel drive and I was working that to get the car rotated earlier in the corner. I over did it a few times and was able to correct the over rotation in situations that my 911 would have been pointing in the wrong direction.
It may be off topic for this thread, but you may also want to ask others about driver variances in Chump Car. I saw one post race thread where the drivers were bragging about going off line in the corners to stay out of the way of fast cars. It was very different, but fun.
Maybe it was just the car I was driving, (which as a Chump Car, was not as nicely set up as my race car) but it had a big push on exit. My brain told me to brake, turn in, get on the gas, but I found that I could use more speed on entry and when I got a push, I could back off the throttle to get more front turn. I was not used to getting off the gas part way thru a turn.... My chump car really struggled in a carousel.
Trail braking was more aggressive with the front wheel drive and I was working that to get the car rotated earlier in the corner. I over did it a few times and was able to correct the over rotation in situations that my 911 would have been pointing in the wrong direction.
It may be off topic for this thread, but you may also want to ask others about driver variances in Chump Car. I saw one post race thread where the drivers were bragging about going off line in the corners to stay out of the way of fast cars. It was very different, but fun.
08-21-2012, 02:05 PM
#15
But really , they are a blast, and even in the wet....on a wet track just try to keep SOME power on when turning as the rear does get light and may surprise you.
At day's end, just get in and drive it--you'll figure it out!
Gary
