Cayman S or 944 LSx?
07-16-2012, 08:18 PM
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Cayman S or 944 LSx?
Since the cost of a second hand Cayman S and a well done 951 (or 944) LSx conversion is close and maybe will be about the same in a couple of years... I am torn. Aside from sentimentality, personal taste, comfort considerations, I am more interested in tapping the Rennlist knowledge base for a comparison of the two in terms of
1) performance (handling, power delivery characteristics) on the street and on the track
and
2) reliability/running costs.
3) subjective preference - what would you rather have as a driveable track day car??
All input appreciated, thanks!
1) performance (handling, power delivery characteristics) on the street and on the track
and
2) reliability/running costs.
3) subjective preference - what would you rather have as a driveable track day car??
All input appreciated, thanks!
07-16-2012, 08:38 PM
#2
Apples and Oranges.
Performance= any LSX will be faster and have more potential
Reliability/ Maintenance= A well built/cooled LSX will outlast any Cayman motor and be much cheaper to maintain
Preference= My opinion is a bit biased, so take it with a grain of salt...
If you want a fun track car there is nothing wrong with the Cayman; tons of aftermarket support and easy to drive... If you want something that will put a huge grin on your face, go LSX...
Full Disclosure: Be prepared to throw an absolutely obscene amount of time, work, and money into an LSX conversion... Also if this is not a track only car, go Cayman all the way
Performance= any LSX will be faster and have more potential
Reliability/ Maintenance= A well built/cooled LSX will outlast any Cayman motor and be much cheaper to maintain
Preference= My opinion is a bit biased, so take it with a grain of salt...
If you want a fun track car there is nothing wrong with the Cayman; tons of aftermarket support and easy to drive... If you want something that will put a huge grin on your face, go LSX...
Full Disclosure: Be prepared to throw an absolutely obscene amount of time, work, and money into an LSX conversion... Also if this is not a track only car, go Cayman all the way
07-16-2012, 08:45 PM
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Why do you recommend this?
(Great comments, ty. )
EDIT:
I have read that the Cayman S cars that have been raced so far have shown excellent reliability. The LSx will still top the Cayman? I would worry about transmission issues though I know the LS series is a reliable and proven engine.
(Great comments, ty. )
EDIT:
I have read that the Cayman S cars that have been raced so far have shown excellent reliability. The LSx will still top the Cayman? I would worry about transmission issues though I know the LS series is a reliable and proven engine.
07-16-2012, 09:48 PM
#4
Rennlist Member
I have a CS and a highly modified 951. They have similar weight distribution, with the 951 weight out by the axles and the CS has it all between the axles. The 951 probably gives more warning that it is having traction issues, the CS has a bit more grip. I would not track the CS until modification to power steering lines, and other temp sensitive items in the engine compartment.
07-16-2012, 11:22 PM
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I have a CS and a highly modified 951. They have similar weight distribution, with the 951 weight out by the axles and the CS has it all between the axles. The 951 probably gives more warning that it is having traction issues, the CS has a bit more grip. I would not track the CS until modification to power steering lines, and other temp sensitive items in the engine compartment.
Thanks. You are helping me formulate more clearly what I can or cannot use the CS for. All very helpful for my decision making process!
07-17-2012, 08:11 AM
#6
Rennlist Member
Also take into account your track goals... Do you just want to win your DE? Do you want to improve your skillz? Or do you want to get into club racing?
Personally, I think you're better off with the Cayman for the street - it'll have less rattles and less wear-and-tear on the interior, it's more likely that the AC, cruise control, ABS, etc. works, and, while some engine parts will be cheaper on an LS engine, there will be fewer places that will be willing to work on it because it's a "bastard".
Long story short: if you're a "V8 guy" or have a hard-on for doing engine swaps, get the 944. If you want to get from point A to point B with the least hassle and the most convenience, get the Cayman.
Personally, I think you're better off with the Cayman for the street - it'll have less rattles and less wear-and-tear on the interior, it's more likely that the AC, cruise control, ABS, etc. works, and, while some engine parts will be cheaper on an LS engine, there will be fewer places that will be willing to work on it because it's a "bastard".
Long story short: if you're a "V8 guy" or have a hard-on for doing engine swaps, get the 944. If you want to get from point A to point B with the least hassle and the most convenience, get the Cayman.
07-17-2012, 08:26 AM
#7
Nordschleife Master
Well, I have a 944LS race car and it's great. Having said that, when I give up racing in a few years, my plan is to buy a Cayman S and make it into a nice DD/DE car.
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07-17-2012, 08:59 AM
#8
Three Wheelin'
A well sorted & developed 944LS is expensive but with less maintenance costs. I will say that both are easy to drive fast. I would never even consider a poorly executed LS car and most are just that. Unless you have a fabricator/builder or have a above average skill set don't even think about an 944LS.
I would recommend the Cayman all the way especially if you want to do some time on the street. It is a phenomenal platform that inspires confidence. Unless you want to make an offer on arguably the best LS in the US!
I would recommend the Cayman all the way especially if you want to do some time on the street. It is a phenomenal platform that inspires confidence. Unless you want to make an offer on arguably the best LS in the US!
07-17-2012, 02:04 PM
#9
Nordschleife Master
The Cayman S was one of the cars i considered before going all in with an LS1 swap on my 951.
I am still a few months away at best from getting the car running and have said to myself i wish i had just went with a car out of the box, rather than opting for another long project. Ill likely not make any track days this year and will probably spend most of of the winter and spring shaking the car down too work out the kinks and gain trust in it.
Here are the reasons that made me go with the LSx route..
-Simplicity of the engine and cost of the components; The LSx is such an easy to work on and relatively simple engine compared to the 2.5L turbo i honestly wonder why i wasted 3-4 years trying to keep that engine alive. Parts are super cheap and readily available locally also.
-Familiarity of platform; Ive owned a 944 series car for nearly a decade at this point so i know the car very well inside and out. Plus i have become really comfortable with its handling and braking characteristics. No learning curve for a new car.
-Relatively large 'investment' already spent on my 951; I already had alot of money into my 951, not only in the 2.5L but also in the suspension, brakes, drivetrain.. etc. Like we all know, you get pennies on the dollar selling modded car. Which leads me to..
-Value of a car i am comfortable using on the track; Like mentioned many times, dont run anything on the track you cant afford to write off. While i have alot of time / money into my 951, i think it would be a struggle to get $15k for it which in my mind, is still a pretty decent loss.
A Cayman S price range varies from $25-35k depending on many factors. I felt like it was a little too much $$ (for me) to be risking on the track.
I just feel like despite whatever money i have into my 951, it just really isnt that valuable a car.. atleast not like the Cayman is. I think id also feel not as bad having a crumpled fender on my 951 as opposed to one on the Cayman.
I ran the numbers for an LSx conversion on my car, and figured it would probably cost me in the area of $10-12k out of pocket to complete. I have been keeping an accurate spreadsheet of all my costs and so far i am basically right on that $ and have ordered basically everything i need. Now i have decided to have the car professionally built as i simply do not have the time anymore to finish this project in a reasonable time frame. So maybe add another $4k onto that number. This i a fairly large initial 'investment' but i ended recouping more than half of that $$ from parting out the engine and all turbo related items. I think all said and done, i will be into this less than $7-8k for a running car, and that includes having the swap done professionally.
Then of course there were personal / sentimental reasons i decided to do this. I still drive the car very often on the street and attend car shows, meets ..etc . And i always liked having a relatively unique car. I really like the Cayman and all but it does not have that same 'presence' as a well cared for older p-car. And frankly, i really love my 951
.
I am still a few months away at best from getting the car running and have said to myself i wish i had just went with a car out of the box, rather than opting for another long project. Ill likely not make any track days this year and will probably spend most of of the winter and spring shaking the car down too work out the kinks and gain trust in it.
Here are the reasons that made me go with the LSx route..
-Simplicity of the engine and cost of the components; The LSx is such an easy to work on and relatively simple engine compared to the 2.5L turbo i honestly wonder why i wasted 3-4 years trying to keep that engine alive. Parts are super cheap and readily available locally also.
-Familiarity of platform; Ive owned a 944 series car for nearly a decade at this point so i know the car very well inside and out. Plus i have become really comfortable with its handling and braking characteristics. No learning curve for a new car.
-Relatively large 'investment' already spent on my 951; I already had alot of money into my 951, not only in the 2.5L but also in the suspension, brakes, drivetrain.. etc. Like we all know, you get pennies on the dollar selling modded car. Which leads me to..
-Value of a car i am comfortable using on the track; Like mentioned many times, dont run anything on the track you cant afford to write off. While i have alot of time / money into my 951, i think it would be a struggle to get $15k for it which in my mind, is still a pretty decent loss.
A Cayman S price range varies from $25-35k depending on many factors. I felt like it was a little too much $$ (for me) to be risking on the track.
I just feel like despite whatever money i have into my 951, it just really isnt that valuable a car.. atleast not like the Cayman is. I think id also feel not as bad having a crumpled fender on my 951 as opposed to one on the Cayman.
I ran the numbers for an LSx conversion on my car, and figured it would probably cost me in the area of $10-12k out of pocket to complete. I have been keeping an accurate spreadsheet of all my costs and so far i am basically right on that $ and have ordered basically everything i need. Now i have decided to have the car professionally built as i simply do not have the time anymore to finish this project in a reasonable time frame. So maybe add another $4k onto that number. This i a fairly large initial 'investment' but i ended recouping more than half of that $$ from parting out the engine and all turbo related items. I think all said and done, i will be into this less than $7-8k for a running car, and that includes having the swap done professionally.
Then of course there were personal / sentimental reasons i decided to do this. I still drive the car very often on the street and attend car shows, meets ..etc . And i always liked having a relatively unique car. I really like the Cayman and all but it does not have that same 'presence' as a well cared for older p-car. And frankly, i really love my 951
.
07-17-2012, 05:09 PM
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Also take into account your track goals... Do you just want to win your DE? Do you want to improve your skillz? Or do you want to get into club racing?
Personally, I think you're better off with the Cayman for the street - it'll have less rattles and less wear-and-tear on the interior, it's more likely that the AC, cruise control, ABS, etc. works, and, while some engine parts will be cheaper on an LS engine, there will be fewer places that will be willing to work on it because it's a "bastard".
Long story short: if you're a "V8 guy" or have a hard-on for doing engine swaps, get the 944. If you want to get from point A to point B with the least hassle and the most convenience, get the Cayman.
Personally, I think you're better off with the Cayman for the street - it'll have less rattles and less wear-and-tear on the interior, it's more likely that the AC, cruise control, ABS, etc. works, and, while some engine parts will be cheaper on an LS engine, there will be fewer places that will be willing to work on it because it's a "bastard".
Long story short: if you're a "V8 guy" or have a hard-on for doing engine swaps, get the 944. If you want to get from point A to point B with the least hassle and the most convenience, get the Cayman.
I have done an engine and entire chassis contents strip/swap on a different car brand (Acura to Honda), including fabricating custom engine mounts myself. I have done all my 944 maintenance myself, including clutch replacement and a thousand other things. I have parted out one 944 and repaired the head gasket and seals on another, and have access to a metalwork/fabrication shop where I do some part-time work.
I still have much, much more to learn and many more mistakes to make before I would say that my skills are even average. But the LS conversion presents an opportunity to improve.While it will be time consuming and will stretch my skills, I am not particularly intimidated at doing the work myself.
Finding a shop that will work on the bastard should not matter, as I would do all the work myself (apart from any machine shop stuff on the engine) . It would be a learning experience as well as a rewarding project.
I have been really impressed with the LS conversions I have seen so far, and I just really wanted to know which platform will be the most enjoyable to drive. If the LS is a s good as I think, it will be worth the thousands of hours poured into it. If the Cayman is as good, I will not need as many hours invested (though perhaps a few more $$).
Solution coming: flip a coin. No wait. Work harder and buy both! No wait. I have a wife so that won't fly.
Conclusion: keep obsessing! The question is a deeper one philosophically also, because the Cayman could potentially be the car that enthusiasts like us try to keep alive 20 years hence just as we do with the 944s today. I have great admiration for both "underdog" cars and just can't seem to get as excited about any of the 911 iterations, even though many fall into the same budget range.
07-17-2012, 05:18 PM
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A well sorted & developed 944LS is expensive but with less maintenance costs. I will say that both are easy to drive fast. I would never even consider a poorly executed LS car and most are just that. Unless you have a fabricator/builder or have a above average skill set don't even think about an 944LS.
I would recommend the Cayman all the way especially if you want to do some time on the street. It is a phenomenal platform that inspires confidence. Unless you want to make an offer on arguably the best LS in the US!
I would recommend the Cayman all the way especially if you want to do some time on the street. It is a phenomenal platform that inspires confidence. Unless you want to make an offer on arguably the best LS in the US!
In regards to fabrication: I have yet to have failed to learn what I needed to in order to accomplish a project, but admittedly those projects are not as advanced in scope as this one, which would be the next jump up. The pleasure of doing the project is part of the appeal... but I know from experience that the pleasure is mixed with equal amounts of pain, and many times I may regret and wish I had just bought a complete and ready package.
07-17-2012, 05:29 PM
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The Cayman S was one of the cars i considered before going all in with an LS1 swap on my 951.
I am still a few months away at best from getting the car running and have said to myself i wish i had just went with a car out of the box, rather than opting for another long project. Ill likely not make any track days this year and will probably spend most of of the winter and spring shaking the car down too work out the kinks and gain trust in it.
Here are the reasons that made me go with the LSx route..
-Simplicity of the engine and cost of the components; The LSx is such an easy to work on and relatively simple engine compared to the 2.5L turbo i honestly wonder why i wasted 3-4 years trying to keep that engine alive. Parts are super cheap and readily available locally also.
-Familiarity of platform; Ive owned a 944 series car for nearly a decade at this point so i know the car very well inside and out. Plus i have become really comfortable with its handling and braking characteristics. No learning curve for a new car.
-Relatively large 'investment' already spent on my 951; I already had alot of money into my 951, not only in the 2.5L but also in the suspension, brakes, drivetrain.. etc. Like we all know, you get pennies on the dollar selling modded car. Which leads me to..
-Value of a car i am comfortable using on the track; Like mentioned many times, dont run anything on the track you cant afford to write off. While i have alot of time / money into my 951, i think it would be a struggle to get $15k for it which in my mind, is still a pretty decent loss.
A Cayman S price range varies from $25-35k depending on many factors. I felt like it was a little too much $$ (for me) to be risking on the track.
I just feel like despite whatever money i have into my 951, it just really isnt that valuable a car.. atleast not like the Cayman is. I think id also feel not as bad having a crumpled fender on my 951 as opposed to one on the Cayman.
I ran the numbers for an LSx conversion on my car, and figured it would probably cost me in the area of $10-12k out of pocket to complete. I have been keeping an accurate spreadsheet of all my costs and so far i am basically right on that $ and have ordered basically everything i need. Now i have decided to have the car professionally built as i simply do not have the time anymore to finish this project in a reasonable time frame. So maybe add another $4k onto that number. This i a fairly large initial 'investment' but i ended recouping more than half of that $$ from parting out the engine and all turbo related items. I think all said and done, i will be into this less than $7-8k for a running car, and that includes having the swap done professionally.
Then of course there were personal / sentimental reasons i decided to do this. I still drive the car very often on the street and attend car shows, meets ..etc . And i always liked having a relatively unique car. I really like the Cayman and all but it does not have that same 'presence' as a well cared for older p-car. And frankly, i really love my 951.
I am still a few months away at best from getting the car running and have said to myself i wish i had just went with a car out of the box, rather than opting for another long project. Ill likely not make any track days this year and will probably spend most of of the winter and spring shaking the car down too work out the kinks and gain trust in it.
Here are the reasons that made me go with the LSx route..
-Simplicity of the engine and cost of the components; The LSx is such an easy to work on and relatively simple engine compared to the 2.5L turbo i honestly wonder why i wasted 3-4 years trying to keep that engine alive. Parts are super cheap and readily available locally also.
-Familiarity of platform; Ive owned a 944 series car for nearly a decade at this point so i know the car very well inside and out. Plus i have become really comfortable with its handling and braking characteristics. No learning curve for a new car.
-Relatively large 'investment' already spent on my 951; I already had alot of money into my 951, not only in the 2.5L but also in the suspension, brakes, drivetrain.. etc. Like we all know, you get pennies on the dollar selling modded car. Which leads me to..
-Value of a car i am comfortable using on the track; Like mentioned many times, dont run anything on the track you cant afford to write off. While i have alot of time / money into my 951, i think it would be a struggle to get $15k for it which in my mind, is still a pretty decent loss.
A Cayman S price range varies from $25-35k depending on many factors. I felt like it was a little too much $$ (for me) to be risking on the track.
I just feel like despite whatever money i have into my 951, it just really isnt that valuable a car.. atleast not like the Cayman is. I think id also feel not as bad having a crumpled fender on my 951 as opposed to one on the Cayman.
I ran the numbers for an LSx conversion on my car, and figured it would probably cost me in the area of $10-12k out of pocket to complete. I have been keeping an accurate spreadsheet of all my costs and so far i am basically right on that $ and have ordered basically everything i need. Now i have decided to have the car professionally built as i simply do not have the time anymore to finish this project in a reasonable time frame. So maybe add another $4k onto that number. This i a fairly large initial 'investment' but i ended recouping more than half of that $$ from parting out the engine and all turbo related items. I think all said and done, i will be into this less than $7-8k for a running car, and that includes having the swap done professionally.
Then of course there were personal / sentimental reasons i decided to do this. I still drive the car very often on the street and attend car shows, meets ..etc . And i always liked having a relatively unique car. I really like the Cayman and all but it does not have that same 'presence' as a well cared for older p-car. And frankly, i really love my 951
."I am still a few months away at best from getting the car running and have said to myself i wish i had just went with a car out of the box, rather than opting for another long project."
You say that now, but once the project is complete you will say how glad you were that you chose that instead of a ready package!
"Simplicity of the engine and cost of the components; The LSx is such an easy to work on and relatively simple engine compared to the 2.5L turbo i honestly wonder why i wasted 3-4 years trying to keep that engine alive. Parts are super cheap and readily available locally also."
That is why if I am to stay with the 944 line for another decade a conversion is a must.
Your conversion came in cheap... wow. That is putting ideas into my head... ideas about having both!!
One in the garage, and one to drive. Now that would be sweet. As sweet as the day yours finally hits the track! Hang in there; I always get the project regrets too. They are a normal part of the process, as I'm sure you know.
07-17-2012, 05:31 PM
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Oh right. yours came in cheap because it was already sorted in the other areas of the car. I would still need those $$ invested one way or another.
So , in regards to the driving experience: one can have as much fun in both, would you all say?
So , in regards to the driving experience: one can have as much fun in both, would you all say?
07-17-2012, 05:33 PM
#14
Rennlist Member
I wonder if anybody who actually owns a full grade racer Cayman S with DFI engine that runs in any series will disclose how much did it cost to build it up. My uneducated guess would be a min of $40K-$45K on top of a donor car, just based on my visual 'inspection' of several such cars at recent events.
As of 'fun' question - what class in what organization do you plan to race with? As for DE events alone none of the 'build' questions matter.
As of 'fun' question - what class in what organization do you plan to race with? As for DE events alone none of the 'build' questions matter.
07-17-2012, 05:36 PM
#15
Race Director
for a dual purpose car......I would go with the cayman.....also what are the smog laws in your area? That is HUGE here in the Republic of Kalifornia.....
If you are talking dedicated track-race car.....then the 944LS looks better and better...but is a much more complicated project and requires serious fabrication skills to achieve.....if you don't have those skills, you need to find a good race shop to help you out and be prepared to right lots and lots of LARGE checks.....
If you are talking dedicated track-race car.....then the 944LS looks better and better...but is a much more complicated project and requires serious fabrication skills to achieve.....if you don't have those skills, you need to find a good race shop to help you out and be prepared to right lots and lots of LARGE checks.....