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Old 12-23-2011, 12:56 PM
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teamking
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Default Setup Simulator (as opposed to driving simulator)

Hi,

I spent a few hours yesterday trying to model the effects of a camber change (and the compromise between braking versus turning performance) on lap times using Excel.

I think I got a pretty good first order approximation of how much time a racing alignment saves over a factory alignment (~5 seconds at VIR), but it was entirely too tedious to be able to iterate to an optimal solution.

Surely I'm not the first person in the world to be asking the question. Just curious if anyone out there has any experience using simulation to optimize setup, and whether there are any tools available. To clarify, I'm not looking for a driving simulator. I'd like to take the driver out of the equation.

I'm thinking I could break out a compiler and do this in C++, but perhaps someone has already gone through the trouble. Any ideas?
Old 12-23-2011, 01:32 PM
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Matt Romanowski
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Here's one http://www.millikenresearch.com/lts.html

I believe I've seen them at Bosch Motorsport and maybe Magnetti Marelli. Problem with them is GIGO - it's hard to get the initial info right.
Old 12-23-2011, 01:34 PM
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2BWise
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Yep, have investigated this a couple times now and am currently working on my newest car. I'm specifically focusing on aero in my current model. The tough part with modelling alignment changes is that you need to know the tire characteristics to have any clue whether or not a change will work. There are several tire models being used for simulation, but they generally rely on having good tire data as input so that the results can be considered as representative. I'd imagined you can do a rigid model of the tire/road interaction if you know the suspension kinematics. The problem being is that without the tire data you have no way of verifying the end result. So, while you can't look at the results as representative of actual changes, you can get an idea to whether or not you're going in the right direction. Then with tire temps, Ay data, and lap times you may be able to validate the direction from your modelling data.

I know there are some products available. Some free and some you have to purchase. One being Bosch LapSim (both free and pay versions available), but the free version is somewhat limited in respect to suspension geometries. Personally, I enjoy picking up the knowledge myself as helps improve my overall knowledge of vehicle dynamics.

If you want to discuss further we can do it here or thru PM. I'd being interested in seeing how you setup up your model. Whether your running thru steady state cornering and braking maneuvers or if you're running it to utilize the boundary of the traction circle.
Old 12-23-2011, 01:52 PM
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This is interesting modeling and above my head (which I haven't used since my school days).

I know just enough to be of absolutely no assistance, but respect ya'll for going places where most of us won't. Should you require help anyway, I'll find the slide rule and see what I can do.
Old 12-23-2011, 02:28 PM
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I hear great things about ChassisSim.
Old 12-23-2011, 02:37 PM
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I've only ever done this with huge budgets. I have used software to weed out duff data, have a look at http://www.wolfram.com/mathematica/ its an ace product and helps you through the maths and isolating the reliable data.

R+C
Old 12-23-2011, 03:02 PM
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teamking
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Originally Posted by Matt Romanowski
Here's one http://www.millikenresearch.com/lts.html

I believe I've seen them at Bosch Motorsport and maybe Magnetti Marelli. Problem with them is GIGO - it's hard to get the initial info right.
Thanks, I will check this out.

I agree about GIGO and initial information. My thought would be that you could run extremes of camber or just a few points on a skidpad / brake test and have the relationships between camber, braking, and cornering worked out for a fairly small investment in time/money. Then use previous lap data and a model to iterate to a theoretical optimal set up for a particular track.
Old 12-23-2011, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by 2BWise
Yep, have investigated this a couple times now and am currently working on my newest car. I'm specifically focusing on aero in my current model. The tough part with modelling alignment changes is that you need to know the tire characteristics to have any clue whether or not a change will work. There are several tire models being used for simulation, but they generally rely on having good tire data as input so that the results can be considered as representative. I'd imagined you can do a rigid model of the tire/road interaction if you know the suspension kinematics. The problem being is that without the tire data you have no way of verifying the end result. So, while you can't look at the results as representative of actual changes, you can get an idea to whether or not you're going in the right direction. Then with tire temps, Ay data, and lap times you may be able to validate the direction from your modelling data.

I know there are some products available. Some free and some you have to purchase. One being Bosch LapSim (both free and pay versions available), but the free version is somewhat limited in respect to suspension geometries. Personally, I enjoy picking up the knowledge myself as helps improve my overall knowledge of vehicle dynamics.

If you want to discuss further we can do it here or thru PM. I'd being interested in seeing how you setup up your model. Whether your running thru steady state cornering and braking maneuvers or if you're running it to utilize the boundary of the traction circle.
I'm happy to discuss here if you are! As far as setting up the model, I wrote the following email to some friends describing what I'd done:

I worked up a spreadsheet to model the tradeoff between turning performance and braking performance.

The goal was to be able to enter an arbitrary target braking g, and then have the spreadsheet compute the effect on lateral g, and ultimately lap time. I didn’t get that far (I’d need to develop a state machine, and excel just isn’t good for that), but I was able to run the calculation for a single, theoretical, compromise between braking and turning. I chose a target braking acceleration of -1g, and figured that at that camber setting, my car would be capable of 1.04g of lateral acceleration. (This seems very reasonable given the figures I calculated from the back of Car and Driver which showed that most performance cars leave the factory with slightly more braking acceleration than turning acceleration)

I dumped a file of my fastest lap, with a row every 10th of a second and columns for time, distance, speed, lat acc, and longitudinal acc.

I then labeled each row as ‘Accelerating’ if the speed was up from the previous row. If not accelerating, I compared the lat and long acc, and chose ‘Decelerating’ if the magnitude of the longitudinal accel was greater and ‘Turning’ if the lateral accel was greater.

One very important thing to note is that only 13% of the lap (by time) is spent braking.

Then, in each of the ‘turns’, I computed a new speed based on the square root of the ratio of new lateral acceleration to original lateral acceleration. In other words, I slowed the turns by about 6% to account for the 12% drop in lateral acceleration g’s.

Working forward from the exit speed of each turn, I set the acceleration equal to the acceleration from the original data. That is, if the original data were accelerating by .5mph per .1 second, then that’s the way it worked for the new calculated speed—if you exited the turn 2mph slower, you stayed at exactly 2mph slower for the ensuing straight. I made exceptions for the front and back straights, where aerodynamics and terminal velocity start to come into play. In these cases, I looked up the acceleration for the computed speed based on the acceleration seen in the original data when the speeds were identical. That is, if I’m going 59 mph, my speed on the next row will be increased by the same amount as when I was going 59 mph from the original data. What’s interesting about this is that if you leave Oak Tree 2.2 mph slower, you are still going 1.7 mph slower when you hit the end of the straightaway.

Finally, I worked backwards from the turns in order to calculate the effect of the improved braking performance. I kept going back until I was toward the beginning of the braking zone. I then iterated forward on acceleration and back on braking until the two speeds matched. (Any working forward of the accelerating meant delaying the brakes—this is where the improved braking performance would pay off).

I then calculated the average speed of the lap, by averaging the speed column. This is easily converts to elapsed time, and a time difference is calculated.

So, the answer is: roughly equivalent braking and turning results in a lap time that is 5 seconds slower.

Check the Speed vs Time tab, and this graph tells the story.

First, the real data show me taking the climbing esses at ~100mph (when my setup had max lateral of 1.18g). A six percent drop means that with only 1.04g to work with, I’d be running at 94mph. And this story plays out, essentially, on 87% of the lap!

The payback, under braking—well here’s the rub: since you end up needing to slow down more (apex speed of corner 1 is 2 mph slower) you really don’t get to shorten the braking zone very much.

Now, there is a major methodological problem here. Since everything is reported by time, I’m not accounting for the fact that if you’re going slower down a straight, it takes longer, and thus you have more time to accumulate more speed. So, I need to start from scratch on this spreadsheet (or find a better way of simulating), where each row is reported by distance (or redo all my acceleration and decelerations to account for the fact that going slower gives you more time to gain (or lose) speed). But, this was a decent first order approximation, and I doubt that it would make much difference.
Old 12-23-2011, 03:11 PM
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teamking
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Originally Posted by CXC Simulations
I hear great things about ChassisSim.
Will check this out as well! Thanks!
Old 12-23-2011, 03:22 PM
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2BWise
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How are you quantifying one camber level is better than another? Are you using a rigid tire model and calculating the effective contact patch width? Or did you run some skidpads with varying cambers to correlate Ay changes with camber changes? Then using that to calculate braking and cornering forces to compare the difference over a lap distance.
Old 12-23-2011, 03:43 PM
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2BWise
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Saw your reply after I posted my reply.

Now, there is a major methodological problem here. Since everything is reported by time, I’m not accounting for the fact that if you’re going slower down a straight, it takes longer, and thus you have more time to accumulate more speed. So, I need to start from scratch on this spreadsheet (or find a better way of simulating), where each row is reported by distance (or redo all my acceleration and decelerations to account for the fact that going slower gives you more time to gain (or lose) speed). But, this was a decent first order approximation, and I doubt that it would make much difference.
My current model is based on distance. Using the GPS data I was able to approximate straight distances, corner radius, and corner length. Overall lap distance is less than 1% different than the distance the track advertises. Then use cornering speeds to output time spent in the corner. This make calculating straight line accel and decel a bit easier. Using the same method it sounds like you used. Calculate speed/distance down the straight and then back calculate the point at which braking needs to occur to make the upcoming corner.

At the moment my speed/distance plots are very close, so I'm able to assume that the track map I calculated is fairly representative. The problem I run into on the time domain is that my linear approximation of straight line performance creates large differences in lap time. I'm working with torque model, gearbox model, and coastdown data to create a second order approximation (the best approximation would be a 3rd order). The only hold up there is I need to get out my old Calculus books to solve the differential equation, or relearn the Matlab process to solve for the ODE.
Old 12-23-2011, 04:35 PM
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M758
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Originally Posted by Matt Romanowski
Here's one http://www.millikenresearch.com/lts.html

I believe I've seen them at Bosch Motorsport and maybe Magnetti Marelli. Problem with them is GIGO - it's hard to get the initial info right.
Yes I have the one from Bosch. Free to download, but I don't have specifics to input and then run the simulations. I could maybe get then if I do a lot of measurements, but....
Old 12-26-2011, 06:54 PM
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teamking
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Originally Posted by M758
Yes I have the one from Bosch. Free to download, but I don't have specifics to input and then run the simulations. I could maybe get then if I do a lot of measurements, but....
OK, here's my review of the Bosch LapSim (free version):

This is clearly a very good simulator, but with important limitations in the freeware version that preclude it from accomplishing exactly what I set out to accomplish. At over 4000 Euros, the upgraded functionality, which would allow me to do exactly what I wanted, is out of the question.

I was able to export a lap of data from AIM RaceStudio2Analysis using the Data Export in Excel option from the File menu. There is a radio button for LapSim format. I selected the GPS lateral accel, longitudinal accel, and speed fields, and generated the file. Very Simple. EXCEPT... there is a bug in the LapSim import that assumes that all speed data is in METRIC, and since I've got Aim set up in English, I needed to go into Excel and convert that MPH data to KPH before importing into LapSim. Failing to convert the file to KPH resulted in a track map that looked like two stethoscopes tangled up in an act of love making. I think.

Without a whole lot of trouble, I was able to enter an estimate of my car's power curve, as well as the gearing. The only other thing I changed was the weight distribution, but left all the other parameters unchanged from one of the default car setups.

I then ran a simulation which turned out to be 2.5 seconds faster than my TBL. Not bad!

The major discrepancy came through the climbing esses at VIR. On my street tires (Bridgestone RE-11's, I'm able run through these at between 101 and 97 MPH). The simulation has me continuing to accelerate all the way up to 200+ KPH, perhaps 128 MPH or so. This ends up creating a 2 second discrepancy.

Unfortunately, there is no way, with the freeware version, to fix this problem (that I can figure out). If I paid for the upgraded functionality, I could set the grip level through these specific corners, as well as adjust the elevation of the track, to slow things down through the climbing esses in the simulation.

Also, I could adjust camber changes to determine the effect on cornering, and run an optimization algorithm which would work on these types of setup changes automatically.

Unfortunately, none of this functionality is available in the freeware version.

One thing I was able to do, however, was to adjust the grip setting for the entire track (as opposed to adjusting the grip in specific corners). By adding 15% and then 20% to the track grip, I simulated the effect of running R-compound tires, and determined that on a theoretical VIR-like track (except with faster climbing esses), R-comps would drop lap times by 4 or 4.5 seconds.

So, all in all, it's a very cool little package, but the freeware version is of little utility. And I can't justify the cost of the version with full functionality. Alas.
Old 12-26-2011, 08:20 PM
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I think it's time for some more track time...at least for me!!!
Old 12-27-2011, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by teamking
Hi,

I spent a few hours yesterday trying to model the effects of a camber change (and the compromise between braking versus turning performance) on lap times using Excel.
i looked at some math models but in reality it gets very complicated.

mid-corner traction is in the end is defined by percentage of a tire surface still in contact with pavement plus by pressure it receives from wheel mount plus by slip angle of a tire. knowing those parameters and all parameters of a particular tire itself you can compute max traction it can sustain.

only suspension models i saw were done to see springs/damper model based of a particular car weight and desired frequency of a dumper to provide 'best contact' with a ground. tire by itself was not even a part of such model and it renders whole thing pretty much pointless.

any simulator i saw so far does not reflect accurately how it feels in the reality.
I mean, to have this model and data help for real car you need to know how flex the body is, what amount of force you get on a wheel bearing from the car going, say, on a 50ft radius at 50mph and how center of gravity moves and how suspension itself deforms under that particular load (meaning springs, damper, sway bars and overall body stiffness) and that will dictate optimal camber/castor/toe setting for a given situation. then it gets really complicated as any custom built car has most likely all those adjustments done differently, it may have a mix of parts, hubs, uprights, adjustable arms so complete and accurate model in such case may be quite difficult to build. and non-accurate model will have no real practical relevance as even if it will behave closely to what it should have been it will not help to tune an actual car at all.


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