RA1 vs R6 vs R1
06-02-2011, 07:48 PM
#61
Rennlist Member
I think most of the difference between slightly early vs late apex theory comes from the cars we drive....without a doubt the differences between front engine rear drive and rear engine rear drive is HUGE in terms of how the cars handle and "feel"....in watching 911's (mostly GT3's or spec 911) on track they do take much later apexes than I like to take.....
06-02-2011, 08:08 PM
#62
I think most of the difference between slightly early vs late apex theory comes from the cars we drive....without a doubt the differences between front engine rear drive and rear engine rear drive is HUGE in terms of how the cars handle and "feel"....in watching 911's (mostly GT3's or spec 911) on track they do take much later apexes than I like to take.....
That being said, it is not easy for a newbie to understand balancing the chassis under trail braking as this is not "natural" or easy to accomplish. The car feels unsettled because the 4 contact patches are not at the same grip level at the same time, and the rear is unloaded (a bit) so the driver must be in tune with the car and have a pretty good skill set to maximize trail braking without spinning. This is not to be confused with dragging the brakes through a corner which is easy for a neophyte to accomplish (and is often confused with trail braking).
On the other hand, the late apex is actually easier to learn and is much safer because it is basically braking in a straight line then turning - thus limiting/eliminating the time the car feels unbalanced. IMO, this is one of the reasons drivers never progress past intermediate (except in their own minds).
YMMV.
-td
06-02-2011, 08:39 PM
#63
The Penguin King
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Hmm. Once again I disagree. See, you're an advanced driver, and you understand the benefits of earlier turn in when you are hauling the mail. A beginner does not & cannot make this work...and it is silly to advocate them doing so. In addition, if 911's are late apexing in the top run groups, IMO they need some advanced instruction or one on one coaching. Why? Because (to use your example) GT3's turn in beautifully IMO, and really benefit from early & soft turn ins that broaden the radii of turns...and don't late apex. A little bit of trail braking and presti! A modern 911 does not need any sort of late apex....in the hands of an advanced driver.
06-02-2011, 08:57 PM
#64
Race Director
Thread Starter
VR & Himself
I have ZERO experience driving any 911's....ever...not even on the street!!
All I know is what I see on track in the hands of other drivers..... in the race group I run with the most we see spec 911's and GT3 street cars (in advanced DE, not race since they don't have cages)... If the spec 911 is well driven, I have no chance as they are about 8 seconds per lap faster than me.....same for GT3's....but if the driver is less experienced than it ends up being a fun battle....
I rarely if ever trail brake... I found my current setup with the RA1's about perfect....if I turn in aggresively at any low-mid speed corner I can induce slight oversteer to help rotate the car.....at high speed corners I turn in more modestly (slowly) and the car is neutral.... Before when I ran BFG R1's I was limited by understeer pretty much all the time (I found R6's easier to rotate)....trail braking probably would have helped in that scenario!
I have ZERO experience driving any 911's....ever...not even on the street!!
All I know is what I see on track in the hands of other drivers..... in the race group I run with the most we see spec 911's and GT3 street cars (in advanced DE, not race since they don't have cages)... If the spec 911 is well driven, I have no chance as they are about 8 seconds per lap faster than me.....same for GT3's....but if the driver is less experienced than it ends up being a fun battle....
I rarely if ever trail brake... I found my current setup with the RA1's about perfect....if I turn in aggresively at any low-mid speed corner I can induce slight oversteer to help rotate the car.....at high speed corners I turn in more modestly (slowly) and the car is neutral.... Before when I ran BFG R1's I was limited by understeer pretty much all the time (I found R6's easier to rotate)....trail braking probably would have helped in that scenario!
06-02-2011, 09:06 PM
#65
Rennlist Member
I don't teach a specific late or early apex, with newbies I teach the safe DE line, leaves lots of room for errors.
With more advanced late or early becomes more dependent on what comes before and after that specific turn. I do teach to look further ahead, no one ever looks far enough ahead, then drive the track.
Look thru the corner, you should be past the corner mentally much sooner than you are thru it physically.
With more advanced late or early becomes more dependent on what comes before and after that specific turn. I do teach to look further ahead, no one ever looks far enough ahead, then drive the track.
Look thru the corner, you should be past the corner mentally much sooner than you are thru it physically.
06-04-2011, 11:17 PM
#67
Race Car
I'm not directing this at IcemanG17 at all. But the danger of internet talk about racing is that what one person describes as an early apex turn might have nothing in common with someone else's idea of what that means. (Earlier than what?)
When people online talk about any kind of strategic early apexing or trail breaking or most of that sort of stuff, I immediately divide them into two groups. If they're slower than me on a given track, I simply assume they misunderstand the concepts and are actually talking about something else, or possibly just not driving as well as they could. The problem might be that they're doing too much reading online. If they're faster than me, I try and get a ride with them so I can translate what they're doing to fit my own vocabulary -- there's no substitute for being right there on the track and in the car with them.
Generally speaking, and in this guy's opinion, the fast line is the fast line and the differences guys talk about with respect to their particular cars are not really all that significant once they get good at driving.
When people online talk about any kind of strategic early apexing or trail breaking or most of that sort of stuff, I immediately divide them into two groups. If they're slower than me on a given track, I simply assume they misunderstand the concepts and are actually talking about something else, or possibly just not driving as well as they could. The problem might be that they're doing too much reading online. If they're faster than me, I try and get a ride with them so I can translate what they're doing to fit my own vocabulary -- there's no substitute for being right there on the track and in the car with them.
Generally speaking, and in this guy's opinion, the fast line is the fast line and the differences guys talk about with respect to their particular cars are not really all that significant once they get good at driving.
06-05-2011, 06:23 AM
#68
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I do teach earlier turn in rather than early apex. Some of the places that the turn in cones are placed at some DE's are ridiculous. Maybe that's what Kibort meant. Newbies cannot handle early apexing because they usually aren't far enough ahead of the car to already be prepared for the next turn (especially if there is a close sequence of turns) so you'll be throwing them to the wolves. They can however turn in earlier to smooth to turn out and stop the gas-brake-turn robot driving.
A lot has to do with the track (forgiveness) and how fast the car is and how stable the student is, so one shoe does not fit all. I will say that I challenge them to let of the brakes far earlier than they usually do and that leads to an early apex on accident sometimes, but I don't comment on it or promote it because they almost always blow the next turn if there is one close by.
A lot has to do with the track (forgiveness) and how fast the car is and how stable the student is, so one shoe does not fit all. I will say that I challenge them to let of the brakes far earlier than they usually do and that leads to an early apex on accident sometimes, but I don't comment on it or promote it because they almost always blow the next turn if there is one close by.
06-05-2011, 06:08 PM
#69
Race Director
Thread Starter
I'm not directing this at IcemanG17 at all. But the danger of internet talk about racing is that what one person describes as an early apex turn might have nothing in common with someone else's idea of what that means. (Earlier than what?)
When people online talk about any kind of strategic early apexing or trail breaking or most of that sort of stuff, I immediately divide them into two groups. If they're slower than me on a given track, I simply assume they misunderstand the concepts and are actually talking about something else, or possibly just not driving as well as they could. The problem might be that they're doing too much reading online. If they're faster than me, I try and get a ride with them so I can translate what they're doing to fit my own vocabulary -- there's no substitute for being right there on the track and in the car with them.
Generally speaking, and in this guy's opinion, the fast line is the fast line and the differences guys talk about with respect to their particular cars are not really all that significant once they get good at driving.
When people online talk about any kind of strategic early apexing or trail breaking or most of that sort of stuff, I immediately divide them into two groups. If they're slower than me on a given track, I simply assume they misunderstand the concepts and are actually talking about something else, or possibly just not driving as well as they could. The problem might be that they're doing too much reading online. If they're faster than me, I try and get a ride with them so I can translate what they're doing to fit my own vocabulary -- there's no substitute for being right there on the track and in the car with them.
Generally speaking, and in this guy's opinion, the fast line is the fast line and the differences guys talk about with respect to their particular cars are not really all that significant once they get good at driving.
I couldn't agree more......excellent points..... There are many ways to get a given car around a track "fast".....it all relates to that individuals driving style....
As for the constant bashing on the slightly early apex comments that MK made....you guys are beating a dead point.... MK never meant it as a blanket statement that covers all corners all the time....its just another tool in the coaches toolbox...just like late apexes, trail braking & everything else.....
MK was my coach at www.artofroadracing.com
http://www.artofroadracing.com/ART2011/Photos.html
Unfortunately his car had mechanical problems and he was forced to borrow the yellow RX7....
I say its time to stop the endless chatter about MK and get back on topic about TIRES....the original purpose of this thread.....
On that NOTE.....I did a video comparison between a 2:07.8 lap on BFG R1's and a 2:09.4 lap on RA1's in my 928.....oddly enough all of the time was made between 2-5.....even though I lifted way too much in T8 with the R1's.... Of course having data would be GREAT....but its not in my budget anytime soon
06-22-2011, 02:11 PM
#70
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IMO, for most corners, a properly set up 911 - including the GT3 - actually benefits from an early apex under trail braking to maintain speed on corner entry and soften the arc. The trick (and the hard part to learn) is transitioning back to power early. My experience, data and coaching [including a few pros] shows that the late apex is actually slower at entry and mid corner, but evens out around track out because the late apexers are on the gas earlier, aka overslowing. In many (if not all) situations, time lost on corner entry separates the pack. Having also driven a Miata, this approach is also the fastest approach. I would suspect that mathematically, this is also generally faster.
That being said, it is not easy for a newbie to understand balancing the chassis under trail braking as this is not "natural" or easy to accomplish. The car feels unsettled because the 4 contact patches are not at the same grip level at the same time, and the rear is unloaded (a bit) so the driver must be in tune with the car and have a pretty good skill set to maximize trail braking without spinning. This is not to be confused with dragging the brakes through a corner which is easy for a neophyte to accomplish (and is often confused with trail braking).
On the other hand, the late apex is actually easier to learn and is much safer because it is basically braking in a straight line then turning - thus limiting/eliminating the time the car feels unbalanced. IMO, this is one of the reasons drivers never progress past intermediate (except in their own minds).
YMMV.
-td
That being said, it is not easy for a newbie to understand balancing the chassis under trail braking as this is not "natural" or easy to accomplish. The car feels unsettled because the 4 contact patches are not at the same grip level at the same time, and the rear is unloaded (a bit) so the driver must be in tune with the car and have a pretty good skill set to maximize trail braking without spinning. This is not to be confused with dragging the brakes through a corner which is easy for a neophyte to accomplish (and is often confused with trail braking).
On the other hand, the late apex is actually easier to learn and is much safer because it is basically braking in a straight line then turning - thus limiting/eliminating the time the car feels unbalanced. IMO, this is one of the reasons drivers never progress past intermediate (except in their own minds).
YMMV.
-td
-td, that was a very well written explanation of the different approaches taken to turning in. I also think Jack Olson's comments were on target and yes, your's too VR.
As for teaching early turn-in to a student capable of handling the car, I recommend taking them out on a skid pad and letting them loose it, regain control, lose it again, etc. slowly progressing to faster and faster speeds and longer or wider circumferences. Once comfortable with feeling a car slide and knowing you can control it then they're ready to start apexing earlier with more speed and carrying the brakes a little deeper. When I first attempted this in my 6-cup I think I spun the first 4 or 5 times mostly from transitioning too quickly back to throttle. I'm still in awe of my pro friend's car control when he occasionally sets up my car and drives with me in the r/seat. Probably the most motivating experience for a competitive person like myself is to observe someone driving your car faster and smoother than you. Just pisses me off enough to go out and practice more....
One last comment on late appexing. If your fronts go away late in a race, which is common if you're pushing them thru turns, then late apexing will get you around the corner faster if you can't get enough front grip to rotate the car. Of course you can't let someone underneath you....
06-24-2011, 06:06 PM
#71
Race Director
Thread Starter
Tardy to the party, I somehow missed this thread and only found it searching to understand why MK was booted....
-td, that was a very well written explanation of the different approaches taken to turning in. I also think Jack Olson's comments were on target and yes, your's too VR.
As for teaching early turn-in to a student capable of handling the car, I recommend taking them out on a skid pad and letting them loose it, regain control, lose it again, etc. slowly progressing to faster and faster speeds and longer or wider circumferences. Once comfortable with feeling a car slide and knowing you can control it then they're ready to start apexing earlier with more speed and carrying the brakes a little deeper. When I first attempted this in my 6-cup I think I spun the first 4 or 5 times mostly from transitioning too quickly back to throttle. I'm still in awe of my pro friend's car control when he occasionally sets up my car and drives with me in the r/seat. Probably the most motivating experience for a competitive person like myself is to observe someone driving your car faster and smoother than you. Just pisses me off enough to go out and practice more....
One last comment on late appexing. If your fronts go away late in a race, which is common if you're pushing them thru turns, then late apexing will get you around the corner faster if you can't get enough front grip to rotate the car. Of course you can't let someone underneath you....
-td, that was a very well written explanation of the different approaches taken to turning in. I also think Jack Olson's comments were on target and yes, your's too VR.
As for teaching early turn-in to a student capable of handling the car, I recommend taking them out on a skid pad and letting them loose it, regain control, lose it again, etc. slowly progressing to faster and faster speeds and longer or wider circumferences. Once comfortable with feeling a car slide and knowing you can control it then they're ready to start apexing earlier with more speed and carrying the brakes a little deeper. When I first attempted this in my 6-cup I think I spun the first 4 or 5 times mostly from transitioning too quickly back to throttle. I'm still in awe of my pro friend's car control when he occasionally sets up my car and drives with me in the r/seat. Probably the most motivating experience for a competitive person like myself is to observe someone driving your car faster and smoother than you. Just pisses me off enough to go out and practice more....
One last comment on late appexing. If your fronts go away late in a race, which is common if you're pushing them thru turns, then late apexing will get you around the corner faster if you can't get enough front grip to rotate the car. Of course you can't let someone underneath you....
I have found when tires are worn or heat cycled out I loose the fronts 1st.....which makes sense in my car....
