333pg333

I have to say that the advice that I've received in the past from Hoosier has been a little vague at times.
It would be interesting to see other's impressions of going from R spec like an RA1 to R6 then A6 and onto one of their slicks, be it R80 or R100.

Seeing how such slight differences in geometry have such large effects, Plus very different driving styles, I think this could easily contribute to quite a
big variation in tyre temps and pressures Van. IMHO.

rad_951

When Hoosier makes a recommendation of when to switch from A6s to R6s is there a time frame or number of laps associated with that max temp? Can an A6 funtion well beyond its temp range for a number of laps before it loses grip? It would seem that if an A6 could function well enough beyond its max temp for a few laps it might be the best tire for a race that is short enough.

I have never used Hoosiers (too cheap, Kuhmo v700 on sale).

Veloce Raptor

Wow. What are they teaching out there on the Left Coast? With all due respect, this is an INSANE idea. Try teaching this to a beginner in a GT3 or 997TT and let us know how it goes....and how much you are being sued for.

Van, as Viking and Tim suggested, tires cool very quickly (temperatures, not pressures), especially in relatively cool climates like the Glen. Try to get temps done in pit lane as you come in hot. I suspect you will see 20-30 degrees higher.

Potomac-Greg

Yep. You missed the postings. It wasn't about his opinions on tires. He earned it.

Sterling Doc

In my tests of the Hoosier SM6 (to see if this cheaper option was viable for 944 Spec during the Toyo shortage), we saw LF tire temps >200 degrees on an high 70's temperature day. 3 of the 4 tires on my car didn't make it the full 3 hour enduro before cording from new (with heat cycling). The Hoosier reps looked at the tire temps & wear and concluded that it was too little tire for our car. I've had much better wear with 245's
Moral - size matters, here as well .

BTW SM6=R6 spec'd for SM in a 205/50/15

sidney004

I miss MK already; his sparring with Veloce Raptor(I admire your patience) and the other members made this the most entertaining forum to browse. Its going to be pretty dull without him.

IcemanG17

Okay we live on the "left coast" as you call it...plenty of GT3's out here.... So let me get this CLEAR...when you take a beginner out in DE you teach LATE apex for EVERY corner...for the rare begineer that is near the cars cabilities the conversation?? Late apex takes more advanced car control since when it goes bad you are limited in your options.... When I race in the RAIN I resort to early apexes knowing the car will understeer big time before it turns in...a late apex will spin

or is about how every track is different and the car you are driving is different...granted my experience is with front engined rear drive cars....but LATE LATE LATE apex for rookies might be fast until they reach maybe 80% then it will be SPIN CITY and they are in the WALL or off big time....how much will they sue you for then??? a conservative approach of a slightly early apex on high speed corners is SAFE...worse case scenario is they understeer and scrub off speed until they take the corner.....remember I am talking SLIGHTLY early....

While I respect you as a coach that helps many rennlisters....I do NOT respect you instantly calling my opinion INSANE...you DO NOT DRIVE ON OUR TRACKS...seriously have you EVER driven on our tracks....EVER....while I may not agree with your opinon, I still listen to your perspective.....since I value your opinion....Don't forget that I started this thread....not you........if your professional opinon of my driving from never meeting me in person is that I am insane or unsafe then feel free to NEVER comment to my threads again...

please shoot me a PM privately stating the same and I will respect you and not comment to your threads....

I value this forum for its "pro-con" input to my ??? But I do NOT value being labeled INSANE by other members of this forum!!!! If anyone has a ? about anything I comment please feel free to email or PM me regarding my comment. Intelligent discussion of a topic is the goal....not name calling!!!

Veloce Raptor

Hoo boy.

I am not going to argue with you, nor get into a PM battle.

Yes I have driven "your tracks". All of them except Chuckwalla.

Note what I bolded above. You are confusing racing with a beginner in a DE. Early apexing with less steering angle is an advanced technique for drivers who are well ahead of their cars. NOT for beginners.

And yes, anyone who advocates that having a beginner early apex because it is "safer" is INSANE. This sort of "advice" will get someone hurt or killed. No, LATE LATE LATE is not a panacea. But early? Utterly retarded.

Deal with it.

rad_951

Late apex should be safer due to the lower corner entry speeds and more traction on corner exit since the car is a little more straightened out.

I don't see why the rain line would change other than surface conditions. (rains on a lot of track days here in the NW)

Bob Rouleau

In PCA DE, late apex is what we teach beginners. As they get better, turn in becomes earlier in part to deal with greater slip angles due to higher tire loadings. DE is not race driving school, something that we need to keep in mind. Novices who early apex usually don't have the car control to handle scrubbing and (sometimes the rotation or slide) that comes along with the early apex, scrub speed technique - often used in racing to defend a position I might add.

Proper cornering technique is a complex subject, I'd advise all of us to avoid making blanket statements which are "TRUTH" as handed down from God.

From my experience teaching, an early apex for a novice results in running out of track at the exit - and the natural reaction to lift suddenly. In a 911 this can be "bad" since the novice may abruptly lift as opposed to managing the throttle to bring the car under control.

As for the rain line, my experience with same is that the rain line is usually (note USUALLY) where the dry line isn't. It always amazes me how much grip there is on the "dirty" side of the track - marbles and crud seem to improve grip when wet.

Lastly with respect to Mark Kibort, he was not banned for contradicting Hoosier. As John D observed this has been going on for years. As I have suggested above, we should all avoid things like "That is totally incorrect". Instead, we should say something like "I have had good success with A6 tires even with tread temps above 180 degrees." Racing and driving are complex interactions and generalizations are OK as far as they go, on the other hand bombastic assertions of absolute truth are almost always wrong.

For example, VR says "A6 don't last on heaver cars". My experience with various GT3s agrees with this. On the other hand the Corvette guys use them and they work for a sprint race? Why? Damned if I know but it does prove that there are few ABSOLUTE truths when it comes to cars and racing

Best,

sig_a

PCA teaching late apex turns to new students can be a hard habit to break. In my case, I felt in control driving this line, and was not in a hurry to change. And it's a good thing to learn, as it favors on-track spins. But after a time, I began overdriving tire slip angles.

Moving earlier into corners seems safer now.

Mike in Chi

Amen, bro

Mike in Chi

Was it four or five years ago we were following the factory reccs on the R-6 when it first came out, and they were cording shredding on everyone? As I recall our Hoosier Daddy replaced a lot of tires that summer.

IcemanG17

clearly there is a huge difference in opinions here.....and it is something that VR and I will never see eye to eye about......I am "insane" and that will never change...

I think most of the difference between slightly early vs late apex theory comes from the cars we drive....without a doubt the differences between front engine rear drive and rear engine rear drive is HUGE in terms of how the cars handle and "feel"....in watching 911's (mostly GT3's or spec 911) on track they do take much later apexes than I like to take.....

It all goes back to the motto of you must drive your car to its strengths on a given track....once in the car we can't change the track, and can't change the car so all we can do is adjust our driving to get the most out of our current setup at that time.....

KaiB

It all goes back to the motto of you must drive your car to its strengths on a given track....once in the car we can't change the track, and can't change the car so all we can do is adjust our driving to get the most out of our current setup at that time.....

Out the window with each and every excuse available to us.

Farker!