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Rennlist - Porsche Discussion Forums (https://rennlist.com/forums/)
-   Racing & Drivers Education Forum (https://rennlist.com/forums/racing-and-drivers-education-forum-65/)
-   -   996 3.6L street engine race car owners. Where do you shift? (https://rennlist.com/forums/racing-and-drivers-education-forum/615703-996-3-6l-street-engine-race-car-owners-where-do-you-shift.html)

mark kibort 02-09-2011 05:49 PM
Is it wrong to want to lose 20 to 40hp by shifting early? If that is wrong, I dont want to be right! :)

now we have the actual data on a spreadsheet to make the point crystal clear.

Certainly on the street, or when in the lead in a race, it might be a good idea to save the equipment. But when going for best laps, you need to take advantage of all your potential. Performance 101 here.



Originally Posted by himself (Post 8286081)
In my 996 3.6L, I don't shift anywhere near 7000. Is that wrong? ;)

-td

mglobe 02-09-2011 06:11 PM
Originally Posted by Veloce Raptor (Post 8286212)
Apparently to some people. :rolleyes:

Clearly slowpokes like you, PedroNole, Viking, mglobe, me, etc etc etc could not POSSIBLY know anything, despite our real-world data & experience, when confronted by the theoretical world of a classroom instructor. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:








Professional Racing and Driving Coach
I'm supposed to shift at 7000? My dog told me not to. I'm so confused now.

mark kibort 02-09-2011 06:23 PM
So, you are clearly disputing the data presented in a clear and consise fashion.

what real world data? Have we seen any of, other than a contrary to phyics sesation in your behind? This "noise" you speak of is a valuable resource to anyone trying to run a faster lap time. Just because YOU didnt see it in the hours of seat time, under racing conditions. :roflamo:, doesnt mean its not there. How about this. maybe YOU couldnt handle the extra power. You couldnt then, "bend" the car into the oncoming turn and you ended up slower. BUT, if you could, you would. Just something to think about.

If you are coaching with this logic and mindset, you are not doing anyone any favors.

You want to get faster, you need to use all your available HP. its not "noise" up top, as the chart and HP curves CLEARLY show.

Why dont you vist me in my theoretical world of the classroom at High Plains Raceway, so you can put your "Data" to the test! ;):D

Originally Posted by Veloce Raptor (Post 8286212)
Apparently to some people. :rolleyes:

Clearly slowpokes like you, PedroNole, Viking, mglobe, me, etc etc etc could not POSSIBLY know anything, despite our real-world data & experience, when confronted by the theoretical world of a classroom instructor. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:








Professional Racing and Driving Coach

mark kibort 02-09-2011 06:27 PM
"Luke, sense your feelings, use the force, read the torque chart! It will serve you well. dont circum to the darkside of "feelings" . those are for L. Richie songs ONLY..........." da da da, Nothing more than feelings, feelings of.........."

mk

Originally Posted by mglobe (Post 8286303)
I'm supposed to shift at 7000? My dog told me not to. I'm so confused now.

Greg Smith 02-09-2011 06:31 PM
Kibort, please learn how to use the multi-quote feature!

Veloce Raptor 02-09-2011 06:33 PM
Originally Posted by Greg Smith (Post 8286347)
Kibort, please learn how to use the multi-quote feature!
Why limit it to just that? :rolleyes:









Professional Racing and Driving Coach

utkinpol 02-09-2011 06:46 PM
Originally Posted by mglobe (Post 8286303)
I'm supposed to shift at 7000? My dog told me not to. I'm so confused now.
as just an outside observer i can see what kibort is trying to say but i do not see what are you trying to say here. is there an alternative shifting chart to see?
just curious.

Greg Smith 02-09-2011 06:47 PM
Originally Posted by Veloce Raptor (Post 8286354)
Why limit it to just that? :rolleyes:
Baby steps Dave, baby steps.

PS-Someone email me a dyno file!

Veloce Raptor 02-09-2011 06:47 PM
Originally Posted by JustinL (Post 8285965)
Here you go. At 7000RPM you have to make the decision as to rev up or shift. These options are highlighted in bold.

Edit- I did whip this up quick, so the units are meaningless without final drive etc. Also, the precision of the dyno numbers leaves something to be desired :)

An alternative way of doing it is to calculate Work with W=Pt and ignore the wheel torques but you still need to know the shift points.


So wait....this chart seems to show that--GASP!--you don't really need to upshift at redline with this motor. But...but...but...how could that be? 42,000 defensive words of protest in 2 separate threads seem to indicate it is impossible! Zut alors!!! :roflmao:








Professional Racing and Driving Coach

Greg Smith 02-09-2011 06:50 PM
Originally Posted by Veloce Raptor (Post 8286407)
So wait....this chart seems to show that--GASP!--you don't really need to upshift at redline with this motor.
Actually that chart shows that you're best off always shifting at 7250rpm(assuming that's the rev limiter).

Chaos 02-09-2011 06:51 PM
:corn:Oh boy !

Veloce Raptor 02-09-2011 06:51 PM
Originally Posted by Greg Smith (Post 8286417)
Actually that chart shows that you're best off always shifting at 7250rpm(assuming that's the rev limiter).
Not in gears 4 or 5, which is (not coincidentally) some of the gears in question in Brinkley's video.









Professional Racing and Driving Coach

Greg Smith 02-09-2011 07:04 PM
Originally Posted by Veloce Raptor (Post 8286421)
Not in gears 4 or 5, which is (not coincidentally) some of the gears in question in Brinkley's video.
No it's not, you make more transmission output torque at 7250 RPM in 4th gear than you do at 6060rpm in 5th gear. You also make more transmission output torque at 7250rpm in 5th gear than you do at 5970rpm in 6th gear.

Using my old car as an example, with a 7000rpm redline. From 1st to 2nd and 2nd to 3rd my optimal shift was 7000rpm, for 3rd to 4th it was 6800rpm, for 4th to 5th it was 6500rpm. So yes it's true for some cars, but it depends on the torque/power curve and gearing.

Veloce Raptor 02-09-2011 07:14 PM
Originally Posted by Greg Smith (Post 8286456)
No it's not, you make more transmission output torque at 7250 RPM in 4th gear than you do at 6060rpm in 5th gear. You also make more transmission output torque at 7250rpm in 5th gear than you do at 5970rpm in 6th gear.

Using my old car as an example, with a 7000rpm redline. From 1st to 2nd and 2nd to 3rd my optimal shift was 7000rpm, for 3rd to 4th it was 6800rpm, for 4th to 5th it was 6500rpm. So yes it's true for some cars, but it depends on the torque/power curve and gearing.
And yet, in the real world, what was true in your car is also true in the 996.









Professional Racing and Driving Coach

himself 02-09-2011 07:16 PM
Originally Posted by mark kibort (Post 8286228)
Is it wrong to want to lose 20 to 40hp by shifting early? If that is wrong, I dont want to be right! :)

now we have the actual data on a spreadsheet to make the point crystal clear.

Certainly on the street, or when in the lead in a race, it might be a good idea to save the equipment. But when going for best laps, you need to take advantage of all your potential. Performance 101 here.
Hmmph. Well, I'm never going to shift at 7000.

-td


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