Veloce Raptor

Colin, I am very sorry to hear/see this.









Professional Racing and Driving Coach

mooty

Junk yard motor 3500 two yrs ago

I wouldn't pay crate motor. The chance of it going is same as junk motor.

Currently one of the fastest (1:44 at LS) BSR on west coast has a 135000 miles orig motor.

Done newer motors are blowing up so there's no pattern but a lot of luck involved.

Personally I like REPLACEMENT not rebuilt.
Less than one day to replace. Long time to rebuild.

mglobe

Most likely true. And if so, it has nothing to do with the sump. Looks a bit like this oil pan, minus the circlip.

$4000 reman engines? Which planet is this on? I might go pick up a few.

Coochas

Yikes Colin. Kaplooey.

race911

I never said a word about paying someone else. With anything air cooled (or 4 or 8 cylinder water cooled if I ever ventured back into that deep, dark past when I owned shops) I can fix whatever. Not the case with the disposable cars of the past decade plus. (Pun intended.)

In any event, I'm not sure what ever fails catastrophically on an air cooled, absent driver misuse/abuse. In 30 years I've never had to do a top end on a street engine that did not either have a chain tensioner failure or just simply wore out. Yes, "wore out" could mean as little as 30K miles on factory guides. (My last repair on the quasi-race engine in the yellow car was necessitated from defective AASCO valve springs of the "Elephant spring" era, of which I probably was the last guy still having them in an engine.)

Of course there are different parameters on race engines. But I'd be hard pressed for anyone to claim a Spec Boxster/Spec 996 engine is on the race engine end of the spectrum.

Further, I continually find it interesting that chapter and verse is claimed on "crate" engines, yet I've never seen Word One about the quality of components used to remanufacture. I have but one data point from that rare, rare, rare unit of the '80s. And that unit, while likely good for a then 12/12 (or now 24/unlimited) warranty would not give me the warm, fuzzy feeling inside a car used for competition.

mglobe

So an air-cooled engine is bullet proof unless a component "wears out" in 30,000 miles or a chain tensioner fails? This is the definition of the "superior" engine?

BTW, ever looked at the cost of a full rebuild of an air-cooled engine? Last I heard, it was a fair amount more than a crate engine for a 3.4l.

race911

What are you asking? My 30K comment was specifically directed at 911 factory valve guides, the most failure prone coming on the thermal reactor equipped 2.7L variants of the engine. If you were there during that era you know. If you weren't, there's no reason here to devolve into engineering mistakes Porsche made over the years.

I've had my hands in probably 300 911 engines over the years. I've done partial or full rebuilds on over 100. If they were throwaway engines over the years, the company would have ceased to exist decades ago as buying a plug-in replacement for about the underlying value of the car would have not made economic sense for the owner. And Porsche would likely have lost money on each unit in even the most basic attempt to keep the cost in line.

Now, if you want me to address "what does an air cooled 911 rebuild cost", you have to define what you want to rebuild. And why it needs repair. Let's use the 140K 3.6L I'll be pulling out of the RS America next month. I expect the guides and most of the valves will need replacement. Cams? Maybe, but I've got 4 or 5 sets laying around. Rockers? I'm sure I can find good ones to replace the few that will show signs of wear. Chains/ramps/sprockets? Won't break the bank even if I replace them all. Onto the bottom end. P/C set? Probably still within spec, but certainly not new. I've got both 20K and 44K mile sets sitting around if needed. Rod bolts and bearings? Probably. No need to split the case at that mileage. Total cost on the lowest end, if I can do the heads myself: well under $2K. Upper end, even if I split the case and account for my stash I have to raid to do a "full" reconditioning? $4K. I'm glad I have the choice, and the throwaway mentality didn't exist years ago so that I am afforded the choice.

Would I guarantee all to the above if I were doing it for a paying customer? Likely not. But don't tell me I can't keep an air cooled on the road (or track in a stock class) at a reasonable price, with an expectation that it will pretty much last indefinitely, absent operator error.

paradisenb

The $4k number I put out was from a friend in the business. The $ was from about 4 years ago. He got the # from a someone he knows at a dealership.

I saw an ad from a Porsche dealer 3 years ago-ish for a crate 996 X51 complete engine for $8,900.00. I **** you not. Where they are now I do not know. That price was why I considered a 996 platform.

An air cooled engine rebuild by known engine builders runs 14-15k. There is probably 3-4k in parts and labor for head work and machining. I think Ken's numbers are right considering his inventory and skills. Sadly I have neither.

FredC

Pretty ugly stuff. Sinister.

mglobe

Agreed, and me too wrt to inventory and skills.

Ken, I understand your perspective, but many of us have neither the spare parts, time, or most importantly skills to rebuild an engine. I can handle a brake job. That's about it. With that in mind, the cost of reman engines becomes less of a barrier for the water cooled engines vs oil-cooled.

FYI, a decent price on a reman 3.4l is now ~$13k.

IcemanG17

OUCH.....been there done that (three times)....blowing motors is never fun..or cheap!!

consolidated

I replaced my SPB motor this season, reman's are more like $10K. I found a 90K mile for $2K on craigslist and few more with milage as low as 60K for $4K. I was told to beware of the rebuilt motors on ebay from two sellers that usually have a listing.

Paul 996

Colin, bummer to hear about. Hope it is fixed quickly.

TR6

My data point was a month ago from a contact at a local Porsche dealership who buys these engines. He said the prices of both the 996 and 986 crate engines have increased dramatically in the last year. That's where I got the $12K price tag. Another poster made the point earlier that Porsche figures on your core being rebuildable. If it is trash (as the one in the photo appears to be), you will probably pay the core charge.

Regarding rebuilding engines, most of us mere mortals (myself included) cannot rebuild our own Porsche engines. Therefore, we have to pay someone. I had the engine in my RS America rebuilt a couple of years ago after it spun a rod bearing at about 150K miles. The initial estimate was $12K. By the time we had done all the "nice to haves" and upgrades that I was tempted into, the cost out the door was in the $17K range. Granted, if I had stuck to a bone stock engine, I could have probably stayed close to the original estimate. But I wanted to overbuild the engine for reliability.

For what it's worth, here are my thoughts:
1) When water cooled engines fail, they seem to usually not be rebuildable. They grenade (D chunk failure, etc). Of the 3 water cooled failures that I've personally seen from friends, all 3 cores were trashed (not rebuildable). And even if they are rebuildable, the good availability of replacement engines seems to prevent most people from rebuilding.
2) When air cooled engines fail, they are generally still rebuildable. The case is usually still intact.
3) The price to replace a water cooled 996/986 with a new crate engine seems to have risen in the last year or so to be roughly about the same as the cost to pay to rebuild an air cooled 911 engine.
4) There are still a good supply of used water cooled junkyard engines available at reasonable rates if you are willing to roll the dice on them. Porsche built a LOT of 996's and 986's which means that used engines should be plentiful for a while.

My two cents for what it's worth (which ain't much...).

mglobe

Exactly