Carrera GT

Aside from tirerack, is there a tire place in the SF Bay Area that offers heat cycling?

I don't have the resources to heat cycle the tires at the track and a half-attempt at the job is apparently wasted effort according to Hoosier:

http://www.hoosiertire.com/tctR6_A6.pdf

I've contacted HoosierTireWest Fresno and AIMtires.com at Sears, both advised "Why don't you do it in the road?" which I considered a copyright infringement and also impractical. : )

I have done one set on the track recently and I think it was not appropriate (wasting too much time) at a "DE" style event to work according to the guidelines:

10 to 15 minutes operation, covering 4 to 7 laps of:
7 to 10 seconds faster per lap
3 to 5 psi higher than normal

Final lap "maximum possible" ... let's call it 9/10th's with a safety margin and no late-braking or lock-up, no wheel spin, no slip angle or oversteer.

Followed by 24 hours (not "the next day") or a full week to "cure" being optimal.

Taking a GT3 for example, let's say the "maximum" is a 1:40 at Laguna. Hoosier gives us a range of 4 laps up to 7 and a time limit of 10 minutes up to 15. Let's start at the bottom of the range and say 5 laps takes 10 minutes or so
... each lap being 7 seconds faster than the last:

Five lap scenario:
1:2:08
2:2:01
3:1:54
4:1:47
5:1:40

Seven lap scenario:
1:2:22
2:2:15
3:2:08
4:2:01
5:1:54
6:1:47
7:1:40

A 2:22 lap would be unsafe, I think, in a typical DE run group where the 1:40 final lap pace would be acceptable -- any of the "red" or "open passing" groups -- the last two laps would be a potential melee of overtaking drivers that just passed you a couple of laps back while you were driving at a crawl -- you'd have to communicate to everyone that you were doing a heat cycle or they'd have you black-flagged and talking with the starter about your split personality disorder ...


I think a 2:08 would mean you're going to either start at the back of the field and get lapped by most of the front of the field in a typical DE event in a run group where it would be acceptable to later be traveling at a 1:40 pace in traffic, or take off mid-field, get passed by the back-markers, then they find you coming back and wanting an immediate pass with no drama so you keep your pace up. You're trying to avoid "tire shock" but maintain a rising ramp lap pace for about half the full session. I found that to be difficult to say the least -- and I think it requires communicating with the drivers in the session to explain what you're doing. I found a couple of Corvette drivers thinking it was sooo much fun to drag race a Porsche out of the turns ... with no question in their minds as to how it could be that the Porsche showed up behind them, catching them in the space of just a couple of turns in their mirrors.

I guess I would suggest a simplified approach to run three laps at a 1:54 pace (still a tad slow for the field on the day, but survivable) and then ramp up to 1:47 and then close on something under 1:40, then a cool down lap and in. Total time on the track would be about 15 minutes -- wasting about half the session. I would have to roll back to the paddock and swap off all four wheels. Groan. Do-able. "That's all part of racing" but still ... groan.

Perhaps other drivers here are treating heat cycling seriously and have a game plan for Laguna that has proven to work. Anybody?

Comparatively, if the heat cycle "service" from tirerack is effective and contributes to better traction and longer life, the $15 fee is good value and the cost of a 30 minute DE session for me is about $200, so it's a win. If it works.

Anyway, hopefully someone tracking in the Bay Area has solved this heat cycle puzzle and can point me in the right direction or to a vendor providing effective heat cycling. Thanks!

obsessedone

There are lots of views on this topic. I have had experienced racers say you have to do the heat treating and others say it is a waste of time or money. Since they (R6s) are so expensive, initially I exercised caution and had them all heat treated by Tire Rack. Then when I started using numerous sets per season I decided to test heat treated vs "sticker" untreated - I always take 2 sets to the track so it was easy enough to swap them back and forth. My conclusion was heat treating made no decernible difference in lap times nor wear rate in DE events - taking both sets down to cords. I am buying without heat treating now and not doing anything other than going out and running the hardest I can from lap one.

I am sure others will share views of their experiences which may differ.

va122

Just do a few warm up laps then a couple of hard laps and then throw them in your trailer for a couple days. You do carry 2 sets don't you?

Veloce Raptor

Carrera GT, you are overthinking it, IMO. First of all, Tire Rack heat cycling is 100% worthless. Second, take your car out on the highway at 70 mph for 10 minutes. DONE. Or, if that's not possible, do 2 easy warm up laps, then a hard lap, then a cool down, then park it. the tires will be great the next morning.








Professional Racing and Driving Coach

Carrera GT

Hoosier makes it abundantly clear that this "couple of" approach is futile and may as well not be done, if not done according to their process, as I've described above.
I imagine for more frequent DE and club racers, it's not such a big logistical issue (it ties up a practice session and causes some chores for the paddock.)

Perhaps Hoosier should just declare the R6 inappropriate for DE owners and make something better than the A6. How many DE participants drive to the event? Are they towing or carrying at least one full spare set mounted?

I carry one spare full set mounted and usually one full set new and a selection of whatever mix-n-match (with the luxury of a big tire rack and space to stack spare wheels in a 24' trailer.) Even other DE participants with trailers don't carry that much and none of us wants to blow the first session heat-cycling a set of tires that might get used next week or next month or not until next year some time give or take available time to get to events, sign up or miss out, etc.

If the RA1 was on offer, I'd gladly take the 1-2 second hit in "best" times and have a rather more appropriate tire for my modest needs.

Carrera GT

I'd like to quote De Niro from Ronin and say I've never been accused of thinking too much, but I have to accept that I am prone to "analysis paralysis" as a form of procrastination in the guise of perfectionism ... from time to time ... : )

As for the tirecrack heat cycle "service" -- well, that's why I put it in quotes in the first post and another post here tends to suggest it has no measurable gain. And the comment from the Hoosier sellers is that mechanical heat cycling has to be done on the track with the car at real limits according to their procedure or it's futile. Of course, this also suggests the "do it on the road" or any abbreviated track lapping approach is equally futile.

mglobe

What kind of car are you driving? Maybe you should consider using a different tire for DE's rather than worry about heat cycling Hoosiers.

Carrera GT

That's about where I'm at now. Diametrically opposite opinions. Both can be "right" in the context of how they use/abuse their tires and how I might be prone to the same practical limits.

From this observation we can conclude that in some cases tirerack heat cycling offers no measurable gain in peak performance or useful lifespan.
What kind of car (weight and hp) and what tracks and general lap time pace?
What tire temperatures and pressures?
What tread wear depth wear front/rear per session or day?


Thanks! Much appreciated.

Carrera GT

Right, I should have mentioned, I'm taking a 2010 GT3 RS to DE's and open track days. I have 265/19's and 345/19's in the Hooters (stock is 235 and 325's) and they're about as much as the car can take without re-doing the factory springs and PASM.

There's a lack of tire options in 19's but the 18 inch wheels tend to scrape the paint off the calipers once there's tire rubber marbles stuck to the inside of the wheel.

Michelin and Pirelli, both of which cost a fortune and last about six days and turn greasy after more than about 20 minutes of "flat out" (sorry ... that still gives me a grin) and it's only getting hotter around northern California.

I have an open track day coming up where I don't want to be going home early because I've put $2K of bloody Sport Cups on the track in half a day (which I did in a 997.1 GT3, so I'm sure the 997.2 RS will mutilate the things.)

va122

try the nittos. not as fast as hoosier but fun and you can drive to the track on them

va122

the ra-1 is available in a 335

Carrera GT

AFAIK, Toyo hasn't delivered 19's yet.

va122

oh, i didn't realize you're on 19s

Carrera GT

Nitto appeals as a brand and I've had great results from their off-road tires, but their competition tires aren't in 19's. They do have a street performance tire, which could be fine, but probably couldn't the track beyond novice DE driving. The NT05 is a 200 wear rating compared to most entry-level competition tires at 80 or below. A little more stick than a PS2, I'd imagine, maybe a good wet weather and street tire.

obsessedone

Worry less about the heat cycling and just enjoy the Hoosiers. Once you get used to them it is hard to go back if you can afford them - if you can afford an RS well... They like a lot of negative camber and keep pressures at or below 38 or they start to slide (personally I like them a fair amount lower).