Bob Rouleau

Peter, it does make me wonder about the policing. Not so long ago the thought of a 13 was a huge incentive to keep it clean. More recently ...???

Veloce Raptor

IMO it has lost its punch, and not just in PCA racing. Too easy to go race with NASA or SCCA in some parts of the country while your 13 expires to make it a disincentive for bad behavior IMO.








Professional Racing and Driving Coach

Bob Rouleau

Perhaps CLUB Racing (emphasis) should be for amateur drivers. If pro drivers participate they are not eligible for wins, lap records etc. The tricky bit is decideing who is a pro and who isn't ...since obviously anyone who beats me is a pro

MRW

Interesting question. I've shared my car in an enduro with a pro- he's pictured in the avatar. I know I learned a lot from the experience, in terms of data and, more importantly, coaching, and Jack shared freely with a lot of the guys he raced with in a post-mortem, and i think all the guys involved learned a lot. At the same time, pro drivers do things on the track that a lot of us are not used to- sticking their nose in under the rear bumper, using traffic effectively, intimidation. I can see where, short of contact, people might be upset, but I know that seeing it all and experiencing it made me better. And no, we didn't win- my stint was way too slow!

Bob Rouleau

Sure seems that way. I recall a friend getting a 13 because his hood came unlatched and put a dent on his car. He parked it in a safe spot and the race carried on. He got a 13 which was the end of his event. Are things still like that?

f1rocks

Provided it was a single car incident, no 13 would be issued

Veloce Raptor

Well, PCA essentially eliminated the 13 for single car "events", IIRC. Beyond that, though, I believe that many folks in PCA still see the 13 as a deterrent to asshattery, but a growing number of asshats don't. Same in BMW club racing.








Professional Racing and Driving Coach

dmwhite

right, what makes someone a pro racer?

what if a club racer that has never run in a pro race is just as fast as any pro racer (i know people that fit in to this category), are they not eligible to play in your sandbox either? when is someone too fast to run in club racing?

what about people that race in pro series' that are slow? there are plenty of those out there, lol...

what you're essentially telling people is that they are too fast to race in your race...why not welcome the competition and see what can be gained from it?

keep in mind that a lot of pro racers got their start in club racing...kind of a shame not to welcome them back to where they got started...they're racing because they love to race, presumably just like everyone in club racing....

well that goes without saying

this is similar to what I typically see when there are pros at club events...

as long as they are playing by the same rules (clean racing, no contact in a 13/13 series, etc), i don't see why anyone would get upset...

M758

That is the intent of a 13/13, but the 13/13 rule does not account for the asshat that fails to hit people, because they run off track to avoid him. Far better to have consistant race steward who can understand if a driver a "supect" for being an asshat. However given that PCA does not have consistant stewards it makes it hard. Locally NASA events are held by and run by regulars. This means it is easy to put a driver on probation for marginal driving and monitor that. Too many risky passes and you get suspenend even with zero contact.

In PCA you can be anonoymous most every race.

M758

As for pro's being too fast... I have seen similar type dicussion in NASA Time Trial. However they are looking at "racers" or "race cars" entering time trial "taking away their track records".

The problem there is that what defines a race car? A cage, logbook? What defines a "racer"? In the end it always becomes clear you can't stop a racer from running with time trialers. Just make sure the racer follows time trial rules and etiqutte and you will be fine. If they take a track record or two so be it.

PedroNole

To be clear, I have no problem with pro drivers in club racing. Bring 'em on. I've been door to door with Jack Baldwin (referenced above), Spencer Pumpelly, Cort Wagner, etc, etc and it's GREAT. I've also had pros help me with data, etc during practice days and it's dramatically improved my driving.

That said, I do have a problem with pro drivers (Wolf Henzler, Jack Baldwin and others who have been paid to race) having PCA "Club" Racing track records. Find me a Club Racer in a 996 Cup that can do a sub-2:12 at Sebring and I'll give him some money to help him go pro. Wolf has the PCA track record there at 2:09...REALLY???

I also have a problem if I'm doing a 90 minute enduro alone or with a fellow club racer and get second place because some guy puts a pro driver in for the second half of his stint. Call me a whiner or whatever but I think that's wrong. I know, I know, it's not like there's money in it, etc, etc, but I bought a Cup because it's a spec class and supposed to be all about the driver. If you want to put a pro in for a stint fine, but realize that you're forefeiting at least 1-2 positions...

Maybe we limit pros in cars only during practice days and/or warm up sessions. Case in point, should 2 pro drivers be in the first two cars at the green flag at a Club race? Hmmm..

Greg Smith

Again, define "pro".

BostonDMD

Someone getting paid to race........ it ain't that hard..........

PedroNole

I did, although I realize it may not be that easy....

Greg Smith

People throw the term "pro" around a lot and it has different meanings for different people. You'd be surprised by the number of people considered "pros" that either aren't paid, or even pay to race. There aren't very many true "pros".