Rebuild or find used engine for track car?
03-05-2010, 11:49 PM
#16
Rennlist Member
If you go used, avoid Planet Miata and Mazmart. I had to take a two hour shower to wash the slime off if me after dealing with those a**holes.
http://forum.miata.net/vb/showpost.p...51&postcount=4
http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread...ghlight=planet
http://forum.miata.net/vb/showpost.p...51&postcount=4
http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread...ghlight=planet
03-06-2010, 11:48 PM
#17
Three Wheelin'
Unless you have already built it as a race car. Keep it for parts, and buy a already built Spec Miata. You can't build a car for what you can buy one. There are about 4 gazillian for sale. Find a winning car owned by somebody whose wife just put his clothes in the yard. The more desperate the better. There are great deals out there.
Bill Seifert
1998 Boxster
Bill Seifert
1998 Boxster
03-07-2010, 01:39 AM
#18
GT3 player par excellence
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03-07-2010, 03:38 PM
#19
No it isn't. They used to be that cheap from Mazdaspeed Motorsports, but (a) Mazdaspeed Motorsports pricing is only available to racers, which the original poster does not appear to be, and (b) Mazdaspeed Motorsports' price has risen to over $3000 (I'm deliberately being a bit vague here since I don't think we're supposed to be broadcasting their prices over the internet). List price for a '96 long block is $4135.
This guy (<- that's a clickable link; links are hard to see on Rennlist) paid $195 for a machine shop to do a 3 angle valve job, valve seal replacement, valve guide replacement, and head shave. I don't know off of the top of my head how much cleaning up the block costs, but a friend of mine had that done recently, so I've got a mail out to him to find that out. I can say with confidence (and have been saying with confidence) that the cost of rebuilding an engine to track day standards (e.g. no sneaky SM-specific tricks) is less than that of a crate from Mazdaspeed, let alone a crate from a dealer.
This guy (<- that's a clickable link; links are hard to see on Rennlist) paid $195 for a machine shop to do a 3 angle valve job, valve seal replacement, valve guide replacement, and head shave. I don't know off of the top of my head how much cleaning up the block costs, but a friend of mine had that done recently, so I've got a mail out to him to find that out. I can say with confidence (and have been saying with confidence) that the cost of rebuilding an engine to track day standards (e.g. no sneaky SM-specific tricks) is less than that of a crate from Mazdaspeed, let alone a crate from a dealer.
03-07-2010, 03:55 PM
#20
Response from my friend, who also races Spec Miatas but who does a lot more of his own wrenching than I do:
It depends on how far they go and how much work they do themselves.
To get a used motor to the same condition(practically new with mazda parts) as a crate motor, it will cost you as much or close to the cost of a crate from Mazdaspeed.
But if someone was to do a budget rebuild, new non mazda pistons, rings, hone the block, new bearings and have the head rebuilt by the shop(maybe replacing exhaust valves, FSM valve job, valve guides, cleanup cut on the head etc) and the guy put the motor together himself it would probably be $1000-1500 depending on where he bought the parts and where he had the work done. Crate motors have there down sides too, because no one has gone through and checked everything within the motor and in one instance I heard there was a crack in the block between 2 cylinders(brand new crate).
When you do a complete rebuild with all OEM parts it gets spendy(all new valves, guides, oem pistons, rings, bearings, idler bearing, tension bearing, maybe cams if they are to worn, oem HLAs, oem gasket set). That guy does not need to rebuild his motor though. He could just have the head rebuilt for $500-700 and be racing again in a week.
To get a used motor to the same condition(practically new with mazda parts) as a crate motor, it will cost you as much or close to the cost of a crate from Mazdaspeed.
But if someone was to do a budget rebuild, new non mazda pistons, rings, hone the block, new bearings and have the head rebuilt by the shop(maybe replacing exhaust valves, FSM valve job, valve guides, cleanup cut on the head etc) and the guy put the motor together himself it would probably be $1000-1500 depending on where he bought the parts and where he had the work done. Crate motors have there down sides too, because no one has gone through and checked everything within the motor and in one instance I heard there was a crack in the block between 2 cylinders(brand new crate).
When you do a complete rebuild with all OEM parts it gets spendy(all new valves, guides, oem pistons, rings, bearings, idler bearing, tension bearing, maybe cams if they are to worn, oem HLAs, oem gasket set). That guy does not need to rebuild his motor though. He could just have the head rebuilt for $500-700 and be racing again in a week.
03-07-2010, 06:10 PM
#21
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
It isn't a Spec Miata but is heavily track prepped. The work that's been done is quality and I'm ok investing more in it eventually. I just don't have a new engine budgeted for right now.
I'm aware of the Mazdaspeed crate engines. I'm a member of NASA so I can join Mazdaspeed and buy from them if needed.
Just to make this clear: The PO did NOT misrepresent the car. It was NOT smoking like this until after it was trailered to me and sat for a month.
I've got two Blackstone Lab Oil Analysis reports from 4/09 --- hasn't been driven much since then.
First sample: 390 miles, 2qrts added (DE driving) "The upper cylinder metals have hit average levels in 390-miles. We see no wear off the lower end. 1.8% of the sample was gase, not an unusual find. NO water or coolant found."
Second sample: 378 miles, 1.5qrts added (DE driving)"Chrome and iron (rings and cylinder wear) were just higher than average in the first sample but have dropped to average in this second sample. Lead, copper, and tin are from teh bearings and they remain below average. The only objectionable readins is in the gas contamination, which has increased to 3.5% in this second sample. A lot of idling and low rpm can cause this, but in this case, it might be powering the mixture past the rings."
The PO did remove the thermostat because he was running in a warmer climate. But before it came to Ohio, it had plenty of antifreeze added. So I don't think that's a factor, though the few times I did run it here the engine never really heated up. I don't think I've got a cracked head/leaking head gasket. It is BLUE smoke, not white fog.
Any thoughts on how that missing thermostat could effect things?
I'm going to take some of the advice I received here and do a full tune up on it including new PCV valve, plugs, wires, oil change (I think to a nonsynthetic), and fuel filter just cause it's time. Then I'll run the rpms up and see what it does.
Thoughts? Objections? Moral support?
I'm aware of the Mazdaspeed crate engines. I'm a member of NASA so I can join Mazdaspeed and buy from them if needed.
Just to make this clear: The PO did NOT misrepresent the car. It was NOT smoking like this until after it was trailered to me and sat for a month.
I've got two Blackstone Lab Oil Analysis reports from 4/09 --- hasn't been driven much since then.
First sample: 390 miles, 2qrts added (DE driving) "The upper cylinder metals have hit average levels in 390-miles. We see no wear off the lower end. 1.8% of the sample was gase, not an unusual find. NO water or coolant found."
Second sample: 378 miles, 1.5qrts added (DE driving)"Chrome and iron (rings and cylinder wear) were just higher than average in the first sample but have dropped to average in this second sample. Lead, copper, and tin are from teh bearings and they remain below average. The only objectionable readins is in the gas contamination, which has increased to 3.5% in this second sample. A lot of idling and low rpm can cause this, but in this case, it might be powering the mixture past the rings."
The PO did remove the thermostat because he was running in a warmer climate. But before it came to Ohio, it had plenty of antifreeze added. So I don't think that's a factor, though the few times I did run it here the engine never really heated up. I don't think I've got a cracked head/leaking head gasket. It is BLUE smoke, not white fog.
Any thoughts on how that missing thermostat could effect things?
I'm going to take some of the advice I received here and do a full tune up on it including new PCV valve, plugs, wires, oil change (I think to a nonsynthetic), and fuel filter just cause it's time. Then I'll run the rpms up and see what it does.
Thoughts? Objections? Moral support?
03-07-2010, 08:59 PM
#22
GT3 player par excellence
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No it isn't. They used to be that cheap from Mazdaspeed Motorsports, but (a) Mazdaspeed Motorsports pricing is only available to racers, which the original poster does not appear to be, and (b) Mazdaspeed Motorsports' price has risen to over $3000 (I'm deliberately being a bit vague here since I don't think we're supposed to be broadcasting their prices over the internet). List price for a '96 long block is $4135.
This guy (<- that's a clickable link; links are hard to see on Rennlist) paid $195 for a machine shop to do a 3 angle valve job, valve seal replacement, valve guide replacement, and head shave. I don't know off of the top of my head how much cleaning up the block costs, but a friend of mine had that done recently, so I've got a mail out to him to find that out. I can say with confidence (and have been saying with confidence) that the cost of rebuilding an engine to track day standards (e.g. no sneaky SM-specific tricks) is less than that of a crate from Mazdaspeed, let alone a crate from a dealer.
This guy (<- that's a clickable link; links are hard to see on Rennlist) paid $195 for a machine shop to do a 3 angle valve job, valve seal replacement, valve guide replacement, and head shave. I don't know off of the top of my head how much cleaning up the block costs, but a friend of mine had that done recently, so I've got a mail out to him to find that out. I can say with confidence (and have been saying with confidence) that the cost of rebuilding an engine to track day standards (e.g. no sneaky SM-specific tricks) is less than that of a crate from Mazdaspeed, let alone a crate from a dealer.
and headjobs in CA seems to be more costly than your neck of the woods. everything in the rep of ca seem to cost more damn.
03-07-2010, 09:20 PM
#23
Rennlist Member
Run an OCI of Valvoline MaxLife 10w30 and see if the smoking subsides a tad...The high mileage formulations are available from most every major oil company but I have had success with Valvoline in higher mileage engines, it really does "tighten" things up.
03-08-2010, 01:11 PM
#24
hi.
me again (the jap engine racer guy). it is VERY BAD to run that car without a thermostat in cold weather. if i were you, i'd put in a stat right away. running the motor and never allowing it to get up to proper operating temp (at least 180 deg water temp) is really no good; the car will try and run rich, and won't make the power it should, and won't burn off contaminants in the oil, and just generally won't be good.... i would hazzard a bet that its running ice cold right now, and that the pistons and rings aren't expanding enough and sealing properly. hopefully you aren't washing the cylinder walls down with unburned gas, too....
put a stat in there! and if you insist on not running a stat, run the proper oriface plate in its place (i run a 5/8" orifice plate in my lotus super seven xflow motor; every other racecar i own has a stat in it!). when its cool, and i'm running the lotus, i tape off a portion of the radiator so that i'm sure to see op temps of at least 170-180 degrees. in a computer controlled car (my lotus is carbed and no electronics), it is important to get the op temp up to where the computer expects it to be, so that it can run on the correct factory built in maps, and fuel trims, and ignition curves. when its too cold, it will run in the 'warmup' map (not good).
put in a $10 thermostat, and go drive the car hard, like i explained in my first post. let it get good and hot, and then see if the smoking subsides. as i explained, my mazda powered ford probe smokes a TON on startup and when its driven cold, but when it get warmed up and is raced, it doesnt smoke at all.... its got tens of thousands of track miles on it, but it still runs very well.
good luck!
todd
ReidSpeed
me again (the jap engine racer guy). it is VERY BAD to run that car without a thermostat in cold weather. if i were you, i'd put in a stat right away. running the motor and never allowing it to get up to proper operating temp (at least 180 deg water temp) is really no good; the car will try and run rich, and won't make the power it should, and won't burn off contaminants in the oil, and just generally won't be good.... i would hazzard a bet that its running ice cold right now, and that the pistons and rings aren't expanding enough and sealing properly. hopefully you aren't washing the cylinder walls down with unburned gas, too....
put a stat in there! and if you insist on not running a stat, run the proper oriface plate in its place (i run a 5/8" orifice plate in my lotus super seven xflow motor; every other racecar i own has a stat in it!). when its cool, and i'm running the lotus, i tape off a portion of the radiator so that i'm sure to see op temps of at least 170-180 degrees. in a computer controlled car (my lotus is carbed and no electronics), it is important to get the op temp up to where the computer expects it to be, so that it can run on the correct factory built in maps, and fuel trims, and ignition curves. when its too cold, it will run in the 'warmup' map (not good).
put in a $10 thermostat, and go drive the car hard, like i explained in my first post. let it get good and hot, and then see if the smoking subsides. as i explained, my mazda powered ford probe smokes a TON on startup and when its driven cold, but when it get warmed up and is raced, it doesnt smoke at all.... its got tens of thousands of track miles on it, but it still runs very well.
good luck!
todd
ReidSpeed
