CarGuy21

There's a discussion going on Quattroworld regarding the potential for liability coverage during DEs. It's meant to cover injury and property damage should something go wrong. Of particular concern would be injury to persons riding in your car as a student, instructor, guest, etc. This would be in addition that you might purchase to cover physical damage to your vehicle.

How many of you purchase coverage for your car for DEs and would you be interested in a product such as is being discussed over on Quattroworld here:

http://forums.quattroworld.com/lrqc/msgs/18932.phtml

Scootin159

What is typically covered by the PCA at PCA DE events? I know the SCCA covers it's members (for liability, not collision) at autocross events, and even non-members (to a lesser point). I always assumed the PCA also had some sort of liability coverage for anything which happens at it's events, but I honestly haven't really thought of it before.

race911

That's what the waiver is for. Now, if your organization doesn't get everyone to sign it............

This HAS been litigated through the CA appellate court level, sometime in the late '80's. Perversely enough, it was a 911 driver at an SCCA (Cal Club) race who was trying to get the waiver pierced. Wonder why Porsches have a bad reputation with them?

race911

And I just remembered there was similar, more recent, precedent: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...BAHN19OMPU.DTL

RonCT

This has been debated here many times and most racers carry aftermarket insurance. There are still companies that cover DE under standard auto policies (ie: Those that don't specifically exclude DE, just racing / timed events). Try a search on "track insurance" and other variants and you'll find plenty of people very interested in this subject.

DarkSideDE

Car Guy,

Audi, like PCA is accepted with Lockton-Affinity Insurance. For those of us that do less than 6 DEs a year, this is very worthwhile. There is a deductible - but they do cover what happens on the track - a second driver - and any instructor associated with that car. As an organizer of two DEs - I always recommend it to our drivers.

Now there are other companies that if you are doing more than 6 DEs will be more economical for you to purchase (i.e. a year's policy). MVP normally chimes in here to let you know the Feffman's Favorite.

As far as your regular insurance policy - check with your representative. I know ours after many years decided nothing on a track shall be covered, but a friend of mine from NC doesn't have that problem. NC makes sure all is covered...

For L-A - check here - shows Quick Quote, Claim, well, lots more info:
http://hpdeins.locktonaffinity.com/Default.aspx

gottagofast13

This is Ryan from the HPDE Insurance Program (http://hpdeinsuranceprogram.com).

As Jackie mentioned, we do provide 1st party physical damage insurance on a single-event basis. This has been very popular and affordable option for a lot of DE/HPDE enthusiasts throughout the country.

Since the launch of this program we've sold thousands of policies and only received a few inquiries about obtaining 3rd party bodily injury or property damage coverage (liability insurance).

In my opinion, the organizations that organize DE/HPDE events work hard to make the events as safe as possible. To protect themselves, they have all participants sign waivers to hopefully prevent any liability claims. Read the waivers and understand them; most of them are saying that everyone waives their rights against everyone except the track doesn't waive it's rights against you. That's why when you damage armco at some tracks they send you a bill for the damage. As we've seen in the past (Cal Speedway incident years ago), these waivers don't always hold up in court.

I hesitate to say most, but many clubs carry Participant Accident coverage which is intended to benefit the participant/driver/racer that is injured during an event and doesn't have enough or doesn't have any health insurance coverage. The limits vary, but most of the organizations carry somewhere between $10,000 and $50,000 (I think SCCA and NASA carry higher limits). This is excess medical coverage...it only pays in the event your health insurance policy refuses payment or your limits are exhausted.

We have considered offering a liability supplement to our policy, but my polling of the community so far shows that their is very little interest. If you would be interested in this, speak up. If we see enough interest, we would consider offering some sort of supplement.

Ryan Staub
rstaub (at) locktonaffinity (dot) com

race911

Thanks Ryan for the industry view, and getting the topic back on track. While the concept of liability is always a concern, most everyone jumps to the conclusion that when someone speaks of "track insurance" they're speaking to covering their own (potential) physical damage. (The two posts after mine.) That Audi discussion was wandering way out there into the abyss of what, I feel, is pretty settled. Which is why you probably don't have much interest from people for that type of coverage.

Bottom line, it's knowingly participating in a dangerous activity, and the assumption of risk.

TR6

Waiver or not, anyone can sue anyone for anything. Waivers will not stop someone from suing, especially where an injury or death has occurred. It doesn't mean they will win. But even if you have faith that you will ultimately prevail in court based on the waiver, you'd still have to spend a large sum of money in advance to defend yourself against that lawsuit.

race911

Do you? Pretty sure it wouldn't get past summary judgment. Enough precedent exists. And if you're going to consider the Carrera GT @ Cal Speedway crash (http://www.sportscarmarket.com/content/carrera), just don't invite someone for a ride if there's proof you've been told your car has a problem..............

CarGuy21

Thanks to all for the comments and information. I am familiar with the Lockton Affinity product and plan on purchasing coverage for the next DE I attend and participate in.

Liability is the big question that is being discussed and the issue of acquiring and paying for coverage falls into a number of areas. Those that say it's a good idea but don't want to spend the money and those that say it's a good idea but keep it cheap by spreading the cost around and rolling it into the event cost and then those that say yeah it's a good idea where do I sign up?

My main concern at a DE is my own personal safety as well as that of any one else who may be in my car with me and others around me. There are all kinds of war stories out there that others have shared such as the Carrera GT crash a few years ago and personal accounts by the owner of Sideline Sports Photography who travels the country taking photos at any number of DEs every year.

I don't do a large number of DEs so I would want comprehensive coverage that would mitigate my losses to both my car and any liability that may result from an incident. The ACCCC member who started the thread on Quattroworld has similar concerns and as Ryan has stated has not found a company that offers a product for that type of coverage so he is gauging interest with the intent of floating it to companies that would be interested in offering coverage.

RonCT

All of these are reasons that I'll probably only do DE while my standard auto policy covers me and my car. I think I have the maximum 500k coverage and then a $1 million umbrella. That and the car is fully covered, medical, etc. If my carrier ever excludes DE, then if I can't find another that does, I'll probably hang up my keys. Having that $1.5 million liability covering my back is very nice.

SundayDriver

Agree - And the real key aspect to the Cal Speedway incident is that it was settled. The waiver was NOT TESTED in court and those who claim it didn't stand up, do not understand that it was not tested.

Then, as pointed out, the driver appeared to have been warned of problems with the car. He even posted here, on Rennlist, that he was having brake issues and was uncertain as to whether the car was safe to take to that event (a post that quickly disappeared after the incident).

kurt M

How do you have someone in the right seat that is not an instructor?

The PCA group I do most of my driving with does not let non instructors in the right seat and IIRC* PCA also carries insurance for instructors and other club officers. (*treat this as internot info only)

RonCT

We do it all the time. We'll give students a ride to show them the line, a certain way to work the car, etc.