Are there ANY other regions that charge instructors full price?
10-01-2009, 08:42 PM
#61
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Why? We are donating our time and putting aside our own safety and self-preservation instincts.
After all, would you expect Skip Barber or other pro racing school instructors to pay for the privilege of instructing you? Heck, no, they are actually paid real money to instruct, and they rarely even get in the car with you! OTOH, we get in the car every session, and only ask for our fees to be waived.
Seems right to me.
After all, would you expect Skip Barber or other pro racing school instructors to pay for the privilege of instructing you? Heck, no, they are actually paid real money to instruct, and they rarely even get in the car with you! OTOH, we get in the car every session, and only ask for our fees to be waived.
Seems right to me.
DEs are about covering expenses. Folks that donate their time and experience should be comped in some form or fashion.
10-01-2009, 09:50 PM
#62
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[QUOTE=Veloce Raptor;6950192]Why? We are donating our time and putting aside our own safety and self-preservation instincts.
After all, would you expect Skip Barber or other pro racing school instructors to pay for the privilege of instructing you? Heck, no, they are actually paid real money to instruct, and they rarely even get in the car with you! OTOH, we get in the car every session, and only ask for our fees to be waived.
Seems right to me.
VR, I understand where you are coming from and respect your point of view. The instructor corp does an outstanding job, and I hope when I improve my driving skills that I may join them, as not only do I feel like I need to give back to the system but it looks like it would be interesting to do. However, I have only had one instructor ride with me in my last 4 events. And I do not believe that 2/3 of the participants should be the only ones responsible. The benefits from the DEs does go to support our charity.
We can discuss the finer points between ourselves at the next DE.
Cheers
After all, would you expect Skip Barber or other pro racing school instructors to pay for the privilege of instructing you? Heck, no, they are actually paid real money to instruct, and they rarely even get in the car with you! OTOH, we get in the car every session, and only ask for our fees to be waived.
Seems right to me.
VR, I understand where you are coming from and respect your point of view. The instructor corp does an outstanding job, and I hope when I improve my driving skills that I may join them, as not only do I feel like I need to give back to the system but it looks like it would be interesting to do. However, I have only had one instructor ride with me in my last 4 events. And I do not believe that 2/3 of the participants should be the only ones responsible. The benefits from the DEs does go to support our charity.
We can discuss the finer points between ourselves at the next DE.
Cheers
10-01-2009, 10:21 PM
#63
My general reaction to this approach is to simply not sign up. I suspect it might work for instructors who rarely go "out of region" ... but it's an administrative headache if you do a fair amount of instructing out of region w/ several different regions. It's just not worth trying to keep track of this sort of thing IMHO.
Just trying to be helpful.
10-01-2009, 11:29 PM
#64
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VR, I understand where you are coming from and respect your point of view. The instructor corp does an outstanding job, and I hope when I improve my driving skills that I may join them, as not only do I feel like I need to give back to the system but it looks like it would be interesting to do. However, I have only had one instructor ride with me in my last 4 events. And I do not believe that 2/3 of the participants should be the only ones responsible. The benefits from the DEs does go to support our charity.
We can discuss the finer points between ourselves at the next DE.
Cheers
AI's are there for the asking. That is the sole reason we exist. But once a person is soloed, it has to be demand-based to some extent. We encourage all our advanced students to take an AI in their car at least once per weekend--how else will they get better? I mention this in my White classrooms, too. Also, at least down here where we have not yet been conditioned to be anally raped in the wallet for track events, if instructors started being charged, you'd see a marked drop off in how many show up & are available.
Sorry I will not be at TWS in 3 weeks--I will be coaching some folks at Daytona. But if you want some instructors to ride with you, just ask! Go find Pat Hartwick (runs the Lone Star AI program) or just ask where the nearest AI is, and put them in your right seat!
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10-02-2009, 12:12 AM
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Over time it all balances out. In the end, all DE students and instructors are there by choice. Who rides for free makes no difference. But what does make a difference is how good or bad the instruction is. There are some I would just as soon pay to stay away. Most are good and a few are excellent. Same with the student body.
10-02-2009, 07:56 AM
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Just about every region in my area charges instructors something, though I can't think of any that don't give a good discount. The one region that doesn't charge instructors has just recently started to run 2 events each year instead of 1. So, refusing to sign up due to a charge would severely limit, if not eliminate, the DE/Instructing season.
10-02-2009, 02:02 PM
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First off we have to realize there is a sliding scale of instructor talent. Some do it just to get the recognition (sometimes even ego) and cheap/free track time and will do the bare minimum. OTOH some do it to with more altruistic motivations like helping others and spreading their enthusiasm and passion. The former often spend much of their time talking to friends than working with their students. Though I don't agree with the concept of having limited involvement especially with novices - there is a small upside. Where instructors are few and far between even the ride along instructors allows a student to get on track or otherwise they wouldn't - and just in the interest in self preservation even that instructor will want to slow down the student who is going to fast for their ability. However it does factor into a student's experience and whether they want to do another DE. I've had some great instructors and some very lazy ones. If it was my first event and my instructor was miserable it would surely impact my decision to do it again. DEs are stressful!
As an economist I look at the demand/supply of these events:
1. You charge full price to instructors - then why should we do it? If I had to pay the same as a student why wouldn't I want to hang in the paddock area and sit and relax talking to friends. If you've ever seen an instructor they are constantly traveling from session to session to get in with students (especially when you have 2 or even more!). That is stressful on us and we should get some kind of compensation for our lost time. As I'm a track rat I like to hang out with staff, racers, instructors and students, etc. But I give it up a lot in order to be there for my student(s).
2. If you reduce charges and charge 25% - 50% it makes a big difference to instructors who can get track time and see it as some kind of compensation for their time. You will get much more instructor interest than #1. This I believe will help you get a larger pool of interest from instructors and should give you a higher average quality (more instructors to choose from allowing you to pass over some who have bad reviews or simply are not committed).
3. Instructors entire entry fees are waived or a de minimus admin fee is only charged ($25 - $50). You should get greater interest from instructors and advanced DE students may become more interested in instructing due to free track time (at the expense of opportunity cost). You will have a higher supply of instructors and likely the average talent and experience making it a safer event and more satisfactory to the students who will likely repeat more often. Here is where another concept works as some instructors just don't mesh with certain students. Events need the ability to allow changes if attitudes don't mesh well - it's normally not either party's fault but makes it more enjoyable to be able to get a student another instructor who will make their event more enjoyable.
4. Instructors entire entry fees are waived and instructors get paid a base hourly rate. This would give the greatest amount of interest from instructors and the region would likely be able to pick and choose based on quality of said instructors. DE students should get a higher quality education and would increase the amount of repeat students. The down side here is that the events may not be able to break even and create a slippery slope that all instructors would then expect to get paid.
A neat thing about Audi Club NA is that they are not-for-profit so we can actually deduct all expenses in travel/lodging to get to the track. Unfortunately repairs to car and gas to drive on track is not allowed. That is another neat perk that maybe available to instructors.
As an economist I look at the demand/supply of these events:
1. You charge full price to instructors - then why should we do it? If I had to pay the same as a student why wouldn't I want to hang in the paddock area and sit and relax talking to friends. If you've ever seen an instructor they are constantly traveling from session to session to get in with students (especially when you have 2 or even more!). That is stressful on us and we should get some kind of compensation for our lost time. As I'm a track rat I like to hang out with staff, racers, instructors and students, etc. But I give it up a lot in order to be there for my student(s).
2. If you reduce charges and charge 25% - 50% it makes a big difference to instructors who can get track time and see it as some kind of compensation for their time. You will get much more instructor interest than #1. This I believe will help you get a larger pool of interest from instructors and should give you a higher average quality (more instructors to choose from allowing you to pass over some who have bad reviews or simply are not committed).
3. Instructors entire entry fees are waived or a de minimus admin fee is only charged ($25 - $50). You should get greater interest from instructors and advanced DE students may become more interested in instructing due to free track time (at the expense of opportunity cost). You will have a higher supply of instructors and likely the average talent and experience making it a safer event and more satisfactory to the students who will likely repeat more often. Here is where another concept works as some instructors just don't mesh with certain students. Events need the ability to allow changes if attitudes don't mesh well - it's normally not either party's fault but makes it more enjoyable to be able to get a student another instructor who will make their event more enjoyable.
4. Instructors entire entry fees are waived and instructors get paid a base hourly rate. This would give the greatest amount of interest from instructors and the region would likely be able to pick and choose based on quality of said instructors. DE students should get a higher quality education and would increase the amount of repeat students. The down side here is that the events may not be able to break even and create a slippery slope that all instructors would then expect to get paid.
A neat thing about Audi Club NA is that they are not-for-profit so we can actually deduct all expenses in travel/lodging to get to the track. Unfortunately repairs to car and gas to drive on track is not allowed. That is another neat perk that maybe available to instructors.
