What's the difference between 1:56 and 1:58?
08-29-2009, 02:29 AM
#31
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Kenny: I'll be there and will be happy to look at your math channels. I have about 30 maths that I got from Veracity and a few more that I've created from the SAE book. I do look at a coasting channel and my transition from throttle to brakes is about 0.2 seconds when I'm paying attention and 0.3 or so when sloppy. My shifts take about 0.5 seconds. I look at a lot of other things as I get the chance, I simply chose to focus on a couple for this post. I also look at the car data in addition to driver: brake bias, oil pressure, temps, etc. I calculate ride height, down force, understeer, etc too.
I made a decision to do MoTeC knowing it would be expensive and would take effort to get much out of it. I wanted to replace all factory gauges and make the dash as simple as possible. I considered AIM but was discouraged in an AIM only dash by the Fergusons based on reliability. We all make choices in what we do to our cars, this was one of mine. I respectfully disagree with Mike. I did not find a simple lap timer anywhere near as helpful as the Traqmate or MoTeC in trying to understand why I was faster or slower. Sure, I knew I was, but not why. I'm a scientist and crave data, the Traqmate did not give me all I wanted and I got frustrated with the limitations of my very simple implementation (yes, it can do more, I did not have it and chose to switch instead of upgrade). I do what works for me, others do what works for them.
Mark: Taking a more narrow line through 9 is probably not faster. I do it because I'm not yet able to consistently get through that damn corner near the limit. I always over-brake. I'm working on it. If I was faster, I would need, and would use, the whole track.
Larry: At the time, I thought I was pushing just as hard in lap 5. The data shows two notable 'lapses' that cost a big chunk of time for each. I used to be erratic in T8 (anywhere from 95-101 mph). The data showed me that I could get through at 104 or so and I worked hard last year at trying to be more consistent and faster through it. It think it has helped, now I'm working on a few other turns and paying more attention to my throttle usage.
I made a decision to do MoTeC knowing it would be expensive and would take effort to get much out of it. I wanted to replace all factory gauges and make the dash as simple as possible. I considered AIM but was discouraged in an AIM only dash by the Fergusons based on reliability. We all make choices in what we do to our cars, this was one of mine. I respectfully disagree with Mike. I did not find a simple lap timer anywhere near as helpful as the Traqmate or MoTeC in trying to understand why I was faster or slower. Sure, I knew I was, but not why. I'm a scientist and crave data, the Traqmate did not give me all I wanted and I got frustrated with the limitations of my very simple implementation (yes, it can do more, I did not have it and chose to switch instead of upgrade). I do what works for me, others do what works for them.
Mark: Taking a more narrow line through 9 is probably not faster. I do it because I'm not yet able to consistently get through that damn corner near the limit. I always over-brake. I'm working on it. If I was faster, I would need, and would use, the whole track.
Larry: At the time, I thought I was pushing just as hard in lap 5. The data shows two notable 'lapses' that cost a big chunk of time for each. I used to be erratic in T8 (anywhere from 95-101 mph). The data showed me that I could get through at 104 or so and I worked hard last year at trying to be more consistent and faster through it. It think it has helped, now I'm working on a few other turns and paying more attention to my throttle usage.
09-01-2009, 12:21 AM
#32
Three Wheelin'
Sorry if you misunderstood me Tom. I think for those interested in devoting the time and money, what you have is they only way to go, including the Trackvision SW. I think it is all very cool. If I got the set up for free I'd use it some, but sadly wouldn't have the time nor patience to use it a lot even though I am an engineer by training and highly interested in the technical aspects of racing. But I have my limits... and I'd rather be building something in my shop (for racing-- not a ship in a bottle) than analyzing data. Of course this would be different if i were getting paid to race.
To me it would be cool to have something that has more utility than a simple lap timer, work with or without a trackside laptop, and provide a means of getting at some basics... all for less than $500. I have some product/business ideas along these lines. Can you de-feature, simplify the UI and de-cost to get there and have a decent business... I don't know. Would be great if it offered an upgrade path as well.
My mention of the Serena Industries Hot Lap timer was intended to convey that some folks couldn't even consistently handle its simple user interface, despite the benefits it provided. So to reach a broad audience, it might be better to have a simple device. I got this idea originally back a few years ago when I noticed so many Spec Miata drivers had AIM Mychron units at an SCCA event at Laguna. I think they were around $800 at the time. I thought then that eventually data acq. would eventually be ubiquitous at our level. Its just taking longer than I thought to get there.
Its funny, I was standing next to Gary W. watching Masuo's recent video on Saturday night in Peter Smith's backyard, and he saw Masuo's dash mounted brake light. He said: "he needs a tach there too." I actually tried this type of set-up in my car once and it was interesting.
Anyway, I watched your video again and compared the laps. I was a little confused by the throttle indicator in the Trackvision display. Is there some type of delay in its display? I tried to stop the video at 100% throttle for turns 1, 2, 6, 9, 10 and 15 in both laps and found it very interesting.
I think both laps are outstanding-- you could use them for advanced instruction at, for example GGR events. Subtleties and nuances. Folks could learn a lot-- if they are more advanced drivers.
By the way, I am not sure how you can glean driver distraction from the data on the second lap. I am sure that you are familiar with the "*** hoc ergo propter hoc" fallacy.
To me it would be cool to have something that has more utility than a simple lap timer, work with or without a trackside laptop, and provide a means of getting at some basics... all for less than $500. I have some product/business ideas along these lines. Can you de-feature, simplify the UI and de-cost to get there and have a decent business... I don't know. Would be great if it offered an upgrade path as well.
My mention of the Serena Industries Hot Lap timer was intended to convey that some folks couldn't even consistently handle its simple user interface, despite the benefits it provided. So to reach a broad audience, it might be better to have a simple device. I got this idea originally back a few years ago when I noticed so many Spec Miata drivers had AIM Mychron units at an SCCA event at Laguna. I think they were around $800 at the time. I thought then that eventually data acq. would eventually be ubiquitous at our level. Its just taking longer than I thought to get there.
Its funny, I was standing next to Gary W. watching Masuo's recent video on Saturday night in Peter Smith's backyard, and he saw Masuo's dash mounted brake light. He said: "he needs a tach there too." I actually tried this type of set-up in my car once and it was interesting.
Anyway, I watched your video again and compared the laps. I was a little confused by the throttle indicator in the Trackvision display. Is there some type of delay in its display? I tried to stop the video at 100% throttle for turns 1, 2, 6, 9, 10 and 15 in both laps and found it very interesting.
I think both laps are outstanding-- you could use them for advanced instruction at, for example GGR events. Subtleties and nuances. Folks could learn a lot-- if they are more advanced drivers.
By the way, I am not sure how you can glean driver distraction from the data on the second lap. I am sure that you are familiar with the "*** hoc ergo propter hoc" fallacy.
09-01-2009, 01:29 AM
#33
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Mike: Thanks for the clarification. I think I understand you better now.
Driver distraction is from the video. I remembered that the truck sitting at the track entrance distracted me a bit and the data sure showed it from the much earlier than normal lift. The sync to the video may not have been perfect. While the MoTeC inserts a sync signal into the Chasecam, it did not work properly on that session and I had to sync by hand. I've been having some issues with the dash being developed and the code required to run it properly too. I work on it when i have a chance, which is seldom.
Will I see you for the PCA races this weekend?
Driver distraction is from the video. I remembered that the truck sitting at the track entrance distracted me a bit and the data sure showed it from the much earlier than normal lift. The sync to the video may not have been perfect. While the MoTeC inserts a sync signal into the Chasecam, it did not work properly on that session and I had to sync by hand. I've been having some issues with the dash being developed and the code required to run it properly too. I work on it when i have a chance, which is seldom.
Will I see you for the PCA races this weekend?
09-01-2009, 02:19 AM
#34
Three Wheelin'
Sadly, I won't be there. Engine is still in Truckee, and no budget until I get some clients. I hope that it is a fun, safe and fast weekend for all.
Two things I suggest to my more advanced students are to be thinking about attacking turns 9 and 10. Don't care when they brake (i.e., how late), I suggest that they focus on sooner throttle, especially in 9. A good bit of aggression works well there. But always practice looking for the lights in flags in 9 as accidents can happen there. My wife had the steering wheel come off in 9 a couple of years ago... trashed the splitter.
Another coach for you to consider (not a pro and we hardly ever get to see him these days): Hank. He has a way of working with folks that gets time too.
Two things I suggest to my more advanced students are to be thinking about attacking turns 9 and 10. Don't care when they brake (i.e., how late), I suggest that they focus on sooner throttle, especially in 9. A good bit of aggression works well there. But always practice looking for the lights in flags in 9 as accidents can happen there. My wife had the steering wheel come off in 9 a couple of years ago... trashed the splitter.
Another coach for you to consider (not a pro and we hardly ever get to see him these days): Hank. He has a way of working with folks that gets time too.
09-02-2009, 10:06 PM
#35
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Hi Tom,
You post motivated me to finally register for Rennlist after a couple of years of just reading. Let me share some data from my Traqmate with you, sorry but it’s on my lap top and I am not able to download. I’m also happy to show it to you at the track.
On Sunday my best time was a 1:54.99 and TBL for 6 laps was 1:54.51. The following data is the best data from the best 3 laps that were in a range of 1.6 sec.
T 1
Highest entry speed was 128.9 MPH
1.75 sec. brake time w/1.02 g’s
Max corner1.87 g’s
Min speed 97.28
T 2
Entry speed 107.8
2.1 sec brake, 1.08 g’s
1.94 g’s
min speed 81.04
T6
Entry speed 87.7
Brake time 1.3 sec, .60 g’s
1.8 g’s
Min speed 75.54
T8
Entry speed 115.7
Data shows a .2 sec brake but I don’t brake, I do a ½ throttle lift
1.99 g’s
Min speed 109.94
T9
Entry speed 115.2
Brake time is 2.00 sec., 1.26 g’s
2.2 g’s
Min speed 78.69
T10
Entry speed 117.53
Barke time 3.5 sec, 1.1 g’s
1.7 g’s
Min speed 69.37
T14/15
Entry speed 118
Brake time 3.6 sec, 1.32 g’s
1.97 g’s
Min speed 56.9
I made some good improvement this year. The areas that I believe I found time were:
Trail braking in T 6 and 14, the timing and release is tricky in T6 but once I got it right my speed into 8 improved. This also allowed me to stay on the throttle longer between T5 & 6 as I moved the braking zone into the corner.
Having the confidence to trust the car at higher speeds in T1 & 8. I saw big improvements here. I was doing T8 around 104 like you, now I am 5MPH faster at 109+
Using ALL the track. This means not being afraid to put the car on the exit burms at speed. This allowed me to get to WOT quicker. I was having trouble in T2 in that if I hit the apex, I always had track leftover at track out. I stopped worrying about getting to the apex burm and concentrated on using just enough power so that I was on the burm at track out.
Hope that helps. It would be fun to have you join the battles Rick and I are having. Good luck this weekend. I am passing on this event but doing Laguna the following week. Gary
You post motivated me to finally register for Rennlist after a couple of years of just reading. Let me share some data from my Traqmate with you, sorry but it’s on my lap top and I am not able to download. I’m also happy to show it to you at the track.
On Sunday my best time was a 1:54.99 and TBL for 6 laps was 1:54.51. The following data is the best data from the best 3 laps that were in a range of 1.6 sec.
T 1
Highest entry speed was 128.9 MPH
1.75 sec. brake time w/1.02 g’s
Max corner1.87 g’s
Min speed 97.28
T 2
Entry speed 107.8
2.1 sec brake, 1.08 g’s
1.94 g’s
min speed 81.04
T6
Entry speed 87.7
Brake time 1.3 sec, .60 g’s
1.8 g’s
Min speed 75.54
T8
Entry speed 115.7
Data shows a .2 sec brake but I don’t brake, I do a ½ throttle lift
1.99 g’s
Min speed 109.94
T9
Entry speed 115.2
Brake time is 2.00 sec., 1.26 g’s
2.2 g’s
Min speed 78.69
T10
Entry speed 117.53
Barke time 3.5 sec, 1.1 g’s
1.7 g’s
Min speed 69.37
T14/15
Entry speed 118
Brake time 3.6 sec, 1.32 g’s
1.97 g’s
Min speed 56.9
I made some good improvement this year. The areas that I believe I found time were:
Trail braking in T 6 and 14, the timing and release is tricky in T6 but once I got it right my speed into 8 improved. This also allowed me to stay on the throttle longer between T5 & 6 as I moved the braking zone into the corner.
Having the confidence to trust the car at higher speeds in T1 & 8. I saw big improvements here. I was doing T8 around 104 like you, now I am 5MPH faster at 109+
Using ALL the track. This means not being afraid to put the car on the exit burms at speed. This allowed me to get to WOT quicker. I was having trouble in T2 in that if I hit the apex, I always had track leftover at track out. I stopped worrying about getting to the apex burm and concentrated on using just enough power so that I was on the burm at track out.
Hope that helps. It would be fun to have you join the battles Rick and I are having. Good luck this weekend. I am passing on this event but doing Laguna the following week. Gary
09-03-2009, 12:10 AM
#36
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Gary: You should never wonder what motivates me to push harder. I'm pretty sure you know the answer. 
I'll miss Laguna but will see you at SP in October.
For those who don't know, Gary also runs in GTL and is a bit faster than I am (at the moment, but it will change).
I'll miss Laguna but will see you at SP in October.For those who don't know, Gary also runs in GTL and is a bit faster than I am (at the moment, but it will change).
