Notices
Racing & Drivers Education Forum
Sponsored by:
Sponsored by:
View Poll Results: Who will win the Bahrain GP
Alonso
7.35%
Barrichello
7.35%
Bourdais
0
0%
Button
45.59%
Fisichella
0
0%
Glock
0
0%
Hamilton
7.35%
Heidfeld
0
0%
Kovalainen
0
0%
Kubica
1.47%
Massa
5.88%
Nakajima
0
0%
Piquet
0
0%
Raikkonen
1.47%
Rosberg
0
0%
Sutil
1.47%
Trulli
0
0%
Vettel
17.65%
Webber
1.47%
Buemi
2.94%
Voters: 68. You may not vote on this poll

Bahrain Grand Prix

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 04-29-2009, 03:46 PM
  #106  
Ray S
Ironman 140.6
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
 
Ray S's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 13,794
Received 10 Likes on 9 Posts
Default

McLaren Decision announced...

www.f1.com

The FIA’s World Motor Sport Council has handed McLaren a three race ban for bringing the sport into disrepute after they were found to have misled race stewards at March’s Australian Grand Prix in Melbourne.

The ban will be suspended, however, in light of the ‘open and honest way’ in which team principal Martin Whitmarsh addressed the Council on Wednesday, and will only be applied if further evidence emerges, or there is another breach of the International Sporting Code...
Old 04-29-2009, 03:56 PM
  #107  
A.Wayne
Formula One Spin Doctor
Rennlist Member
 
A.Wayne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: RPM Central
Posts: 20,448
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Ray S
McLaren Decision announced...

www.f1.com

The FIA’s World Motor Sport Council has handed McLaren a three race ban for bringing the sport into disrepute after they were found to have misled race stewards at March’s Australian Grand Prix in Melbourne.

The ban will be suspended, however, in light of the ‘open and honest way’ in which team principal Martin Whitmarsh addressed the Council on Wednesday, and will only be applied if further evidence emerges, or there is another breach of the International Sporting Code...
Translation :

Dennis is gone Ban suspended ...............

How long before whitmarsh is replaced by Iwenhausen ....................
Old 04-29-2009, 06:59 PM
  #108  
Ray S
Ironman 140.6
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
 
Ray S's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 13,794
Received 10 Likes on 9 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by A.Wayne
Got in 2 late , many plates at the moment ...........

Wanna bet for Spain , your bottle is officially finished and i need a replacement
I don't want to bet every race as I can't physically drink that much alcohol.



However, if you still want to make a bet for the season I'm game.

I'd propose, whoever picks the driver with the most WDC points at the end of the year wins.

We could both PM our pick to ITC or the Finn prior to Qualification start in Spain.

What do you think?
Old 04-29-2009, 11:20 PM
  #109  
multi21
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
multi21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 17,013
Received 3,476 Likes on 2,072 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by A.Wayne
On lap 14 Alonso makes a pass on Trulli around the outside to take seventh. Barrichello pitting from fourth, remaining on the soft tyre.

As you will see Trulli after setting FTD on lap 10 , is not able to race the full distance , his last pitstop he is 1.4 sec behind vettel yet finishes 2 seconds at the end , he was so slow during mid race Alonso was able to catch and past him and after his final pitstop , HE WAS NOT ABLE TO MAKE A DENT towards Vettel
Which race were you watching? Because everything that you have thrown up lacks depth and insight into what was happening. Understandable however, coming from your long personal racing history.

Perhaps you didn't understand that on lap 14 when Trulli came out, he was on the hard tires that are 1 sec. slower than Alonso's tires that are not only up to temperatures, but FA is on lighter fuel load at that time. Couple that with the fact at it was common knowledge that Trulli's tires would not come up to optimal temperature until 5 laps later, so he would be more than 1 sec. slower per lap at that moment he came out in front of Alonso on the pit rotation.

Not as much rubber built up off line to make the pass on lap 14 from Alonso to Trulli as there was on lap 38 when Trulli comes back out on the Super soft behind Vettel who has been running all day on the SS and then switched to the HC and shortly before Trulli came back out.

With a lot of rubber off line, and perhaps a soft pedal (as Trulli was complaining about a low pedal the day before after quali due to the high temps) AND the fact that Glock was in the back of the pack and out of the points altogether, would it have made the Toyota brass (whom I understand were personally at this race) happy to see Trulli attempt to take 1 position (because he wasn't going to catch Button) and perhaps throw away a sure podium spot..................especially since he is 3rd in the driver's points. I think not.
Old 04-29-2009, 11:27 PM
  #110  
Veloce Raptor
Rennlist Member
 
Veloce Raptor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: All Ate Up With Motor
Posts: 41,855
Received 1,680 Likes on 868 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Pete
Which race were you watching? Because everything that you have thrown up lacks depth and insight into what was happening. Understandable however, coming from your long personal racing history.


And that perfectly sums up EVERY post on F1 and other motorsports that HamsterBoy Wayne has ever made.







Professional Racing and Driving Coach
Old 04-30-2009, 12:00 AM
  #111  
brendo
Three Wheelin'
 
brendo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Sarasota, FL. Home of Florida Man.
Posts: 1,268
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by A.Wayne
Brendorenn !

Before the Prima ballerina kills us with more of her dis-information ! ....

Toyota did there part the drivers did not !


On lap 12 Glock pits from the lead, blah blah blah

......LH drive to 4th place was magnificient and KR for the first time this year drove flat out the whole race , you can see the difference in his performance THEY ARE WINNERS
whatever. as i learned after living in South Carolina:

"never wrestle with a pig. you both get muddy, but the pig likes it."

brendan
Old 04-30-2009, 12:14 AM
  #112  
A.Wayne
Formula One Spin Doctor
Rennlist Member
 
A.Wayne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: RPM Central
Posts: 20,448
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Ray S
I don't want to bet every race as I can't physically drink that much alcohol.



However, if you still want to make a bet for the season I'm game.

I'd propose, whoever picks the driver with the most WDC points at the end of the year wins.

We could both PM our pick to ITC or the Finn prior to Qualification start in Spain.

What do you think?
We do as we always have you are good for it , not like the prima ballerina who never pay bets ..

Originally Posted by Ghay Raptor
And that perfectly sums up EVERY post on F1 and other motorsports that HamsterBoy Wayne has ever made.


Professional Rat's **** Coach
What hevar

Last edited by A.Wayne; 04-30-2009 at 08:59 AM.
Old 04-30-2009, 12:22 AM
  #113  
A.Wayne
Formula One Spin Doctor
Rennlist Member
 
A.Wayne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: RPM Central
Posts: 20,448
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by brendorenn
i learned in South Carolina where i made a living wrestling pigs, you get muddy and the pig likes it."

brendan
You wrestle pigs ? .. !

Last edited by A.Wayne; 04-30-2009 at 08:59 AM.
Old 05-03-2009, 04:18 PM
  #114  
ltc
Super Moderator
Needs More Cowbell

Lifetime Rennlist
Member
 
ltc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 29,323
Likes: 0
Received 11 Likes on 11 Posts
Default WMSC rules against McLaren

Interesting.
It would appear as though Ron Dennis' self inflicted exile bought the team a 12 month reprieve from a 3 race suspension.

Of course that leaves the door open for Hamilton to leave at the end of this season, since I doubt he and his father would want to compete with McLaren next season knowing they will be forced to miss 3 races in the WDC.

Decision:
http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2009/5/9297.html

Formula One racing’s governing body, the FIA, has released full details of Wednesday’s World Motor Sport Council decision that saw McLaren handed a suspended three-race ban for bringing the sport into disrepute by deliberately misleading stewards at March’s Australian Grand Prix:

World Motor Sport Council - Decision
01/05/2009
Re: Article 151(c) and 152 International Sporting Code – Vodafone McLaren Mercedes
29 April 2009

The World Motor Sport Council (“WMSC”) met on 29th April 2009 to consider a charge that Vodafone McLaren Mercedes (“McLaren”), a competitor in the FIA Formula One World Championship, had breached Article 151(c) of the International Sporting Code (“ISC”), which prohibits "any fraudulent conduct or any act prejudicial to the interests of any competition or to the interests of motor sport generally".

1 Background

1.1 During the closing laps of the 2009 Australian Grand Prix, an incident occurred which required that the safety car be deployed. At the time of deployment, driver No. 1 Lewis Hamilton (for McLaren) was placed fourth and driver No. 9 Jarno Trulli (for Panasonic Toyota Racing (“Toyota”)) was placed third.

1.2 While running behind the safety car, Trulli left the track and Hamilton passed to take third place. Hamilton subsequently moved off the racing line to the right of the track and Trulli repassed, taking back third place.

1.3 Article 40.7 of the 2009 Formula One Sporting Regulations sets out the rules governing overtaking while running behind the safety car. Article 40.7 reads, in relevant part, as follows: “All competing cars must […] reduce speed and form up in line behind the safety car no more than ten car lengths apart and overtaking, with the following exceptions, is forbidden until the cars reach the Line after the safety car has returned to the pits. Overtaking will be permitted under the following circumstances: […] - .

1.4 In light of Article 40.7 and the fact that Hamilton and Trulli had passed each other while running behind the safety car, the matter was referred to the Stewards of the Meeting (“Stewards”) by the FIA Race Director. As part of their investigation of the incident, the Stewards summoned Trulli and Hamilton and their respective team managers to a hearing on 29th March 2009 at which the FIA Race Director was also present (“29th March Hearing”).

1.5 At the 29th March Hearing, the Stewards and the Race Director asked questions regarding Trulli’s passing of Hamilton. Trulli stated that Hamilton had moved off the racing line to the right of the track and had begun to travel very slowly. As a result, Trulli pulled up alongside Hamilton to see whether Hamilton would wave him through. There being no response, Trulli proceeded to pass Hamilton.

1.6 Hamilton was asked by the Stewards why he had moved off his line and whether there was a problem with his car. He informed the Stewards that there were no problems with his car and that he had drifted right because he was checking his lap time and was concerned that his tyres were cold. Hamilton was then asked whether he had consciously let Trulli pass. He said “no”. He was asked if he had been told to let Trulli through, at which point his Team Manager, Dave Ryan, interjected and answered “no”. There were further exchanges, with the Stewards posing similar questions but Hamilton and his Team Manager were clear in their insistence that Hamilton had not slowed down and had not let Trulli through.

1.7 The Stewards considered the evidence, including the McLaren representatives’ statements, and issued a decision, penalising Trulli for overtaking while behind the safety car in breach of Article 40.7 and imposing a drive-through penalty. Since the race was already finished, the drive-through penalty was converted into a penalty of 25 seconds to be added to Trulli’s elapsed race time. As a result of the penalty, Trulli was demoted from third place to twelfth place and Hamilton was moved from fourth place to third place.

1.8 From the release of the aforementioned decision until the reconvening of the Stewards in Malaysia on 2nd April 2009, no McLaren representative contacted the FIA, its Race Director or the Stewards in relation to that decision. During this time, the official result of the Australian Grand Prix was understood to be that Hamilton had been placed third and that Trulli had been placed twelfth.

1.9 Late on Sunday evening, after the official result had been published, it came to the attention of the Chairman of the Stewards and the FIA Race Director that there existed a press interview given by Hamilton in which he stated that he had been told by McLaren to let Trulli pass. Based on this information, a recording of the pit-to-car radio exchanges between Hamilton and McLaren was retrieved and examined by the Stewards and the FIA Race Director. Having been informed by Hamilton that Trulli had left the track and that Hamilton had passed to take third position, the team instructed Hamilton as follows:

“Lewis, you need to allow the Toyota through. Allow the Toyota through now.”

1.10 Hamilton responded: “OK.”

1.11 Having listened to the press interview and the pit-to-car radio exchanges, the Stewards reconvened on Thursday 2nd April 2009 in Malaysia (“2nd April Hearing”) where Hamilton and Trulli and their respective team managers were interviewed again. Trulli confirmed his statement from the 29th March Hearing (see section 1.5).

1.12 Hamilton and his Team Manager were played recordings of the press interview and the pit-to-car radio exchanges evidencing that Hamilton had been instructed to let Trulli pass and had done so. Notwithstanding the clear content of the recordings, Hamilton and his Team Manager reconfirmed their statements that Hamilton had not consciously let Trulli pass and that McLaren had not instructed Hamilton to let Trulli pass. The Race Director and the Stewards then gave Hamilton and his Team Manager a further opportunity to correct the statements they had made at the 29th March Hearing. They declined to do so.

1.13 The Stewards found McLaren’s explanations inadequate and concluded that – at the 29th March Hearing – there had been a deliberate and successful attempt to mislead the Stewards. This had led to Hamilton being moved incorrectly from fourth to third and to Trulli being unfairly penalised.

1.14 The Stewards therefore issued new decisions – Decisions Nos. 76 and 77 – respectively excluding Hamilton and McLaren from the race classification for the Australian Grand Prix and reinstating Trulli and Toyota in third place.

1.15 In comments to the press immediately after the release of Decisions Nos. 76 and 77, the McLaren Team Principal stated that McLaren stood by the representations made to the Stewards by Hamilton and his Team Manager.

1.16 Hamilton held a press conference on 3rd April 2009 at the Malaysia Grand Prix. In that press conference, Hamilton reversed the position he had taken at the 29th March Hearing and the 2nd April Hearing, apologised to the Stewards, the FIA and the public for having provided misleading information to the Stewards on both occasions, but pointed out that, during both hearings, he had been acting under instructions from his team. Subsequently, the McLaren Team Principal also apologised and announced the suspension of the McLaren Team Manager.

1.17 The FIA Observer presented to the FIA President on 7th April 2009 a report titled: “Report of the Hamilton/Trulli incident during the 2009 Australian Formula One Grand Prix and subsequent issues” (“FIA Observer’s Report”), outlining the above facts.

1.18 In response, the FIA decided to summon McLaren before the WMSC to answer charges that, in breach of Article 151(c) ISC, it:

(a) on 29th March 2009, told the Stewards of the Australian Grand Prix that no instructions were given to Hamilton to allow Trulli to pass when both cars were behind the safety car, knowing this statement to be untrue;

(b) procured its driver Hamilton, the current World Champion, to support and confirm this untrue statement to the Stewards;

(c) although knowing that as a direct result of its untrue statement to the Stewards, another driver and a rival team had been unfairly penalised, made no attempt to rectify the situation either by contacting the FIA or otherwise;

(d) on 2nd April 2009, before the Stewards of the Australian Grand Prix (meeting in Malaysia), made no attempt to correct the untrue statement of 29th March but, on the contrary, continued to maintain that the statement was true, despite being allowed to listen to a recording of the team instructing Hamilton to let Trulli pass and despite being given more than one opportunity to correct its false statement; and

(e) on 2nd April 2009, before the Stewards, procured its driver Hamilton to continue to assert the truth of the false statement given to the Stewards on 29th March, while knowing that what he was saying to the Stewards was not true.

1.19 In its written response to these charges, McLaren accepted that, both at and between the 29th March Hearing and the 2nd April Hearing, McLaren had acted in breach of Article 151(c) ISC. McLaren’s Team Principal expressed McLaren’s, and his personal, unreserved apology to the WMSC, the Stewards, the FIA and Formula One competitors and fans. In addition, in a separate letter to WMSC members, the McLaren Team Principal admitted that McLaren’s conduct regarding these matters was “wholly unacceptable” and expressed his sincere apologies.

1.20 At the WMSC meeting on 29th April 2009, the McLaren Team Principal again admitted that McLaren had been in breach of Article 151(c) ISC and offered representations for the purposes of mitigation (see section 2.7).

2 WMSC’s Assessment
2.1 The WMSC has carefully considered the FIA Observer’s Report, McLaren’s written submissions of 14th April 2009 and its representations in mitigation at the WMSC meeting on 29th April 2009. The material facts of the case, being the deliberate and successful attempt to mislead the Stewards at the 29th March Hearing and the failure, when confronted with incontrovertible evidence at the 2nd April Hearing, to correct the position adopted, are not in dispute. In addition, McLaren has admitted that its conduct amounted to a breach of Article 151(c) ISC.

2.2 Under Article 152 ISC, seventh paragraph, the WMSC: “may, upon the proposal and report of the FIA observer […] directly inflict a penalty which will take the place of any penalty which the stewards of the meeting may have pronounced”.

2.3 The WMSC considers that McLaren’s course of conduct as set out in section 1 of this Decision amounted to a serious breach of Article 151(c). By making deliberately misleading representations to the Stewards, and then failing to correct those misleading representations, McLaren gained illegitimate advantage and caused the unfair imposition of a penalty upon a fellow competitor. The WMSC wishes to emphasise that it finds this latter element particularly reprehensible.

2.4 In addition, by its course of conduct, McLaren has brought the sport into disrepute. The WMSC considers – and McLaren has accepted – that sole responsibility cannot lie with the Team Manager who misled the Stewards and who procured Hamilton to do likewise. Rather, the course of conduct occurred over such a period of time that the WMSC finds that McLaren’s management either were aware or should have been aware that the Stewards had been misled.

2.5 In light of the foregoing, the WMSC considers that pursuant to Article 151(c) and 152 ISC, seventh paragraph, the Stewards’ Decision No. 76, which excluded Hamilton and McLaren from the race classification for the 2009 Australian Grand Prix, should be replaced with this Decision, which imposes a more severe penalty.

2.6 In short, the WMSC considers that the penalty must be of a magnitude that reflects accurately the severity of the offence and effectively deters McLaren – and other competitors in the FIA Formula One World Championship – from deliberately misleading the Stewards in the future. However, the penalty imposed must also take into account other relevant factors.

2.7 In determining the sanction to be imposed on McLaren, the WMSC considered a number of factors presented by McLaren in mitigation. These factors (together, “Mitigating Factors”) included the following:
• (a) that the McLaren Team Principal admitted all material facts, including the making of deliberately misleading statements to the Stewards and the subsequent failure to correct such misleading representations;

• (b) that the McLaren Team Principal accepted in written submissions that McLaren’s course of conduct in the matter had been unacceptable and offered an unreserved apology both personally, and on behalf of McLaren, to all affected parties;

• (c) that the McLaren Team Principal has assured members of the WMSC that there has been a change in culture within McLaren and that the course of conduct – or similar – will not be repeated;

• (d) that, on realising his mistakes, Hamilton held a press conference at which he apologised for his actions; and

• (e) that McLaren promptly suspended, and subsequently terminated the employment of, its Team Manager, who misled the Stewards and who procured that Hamilton did likewise.

2.8 However, in addition to considering the existence of Mitigating Factors, the WMSC also considered whether there were aggravating factors suggesting that the level of any penalty should be increased. In this instance, the WMSC recalls that McLaren has recently breached Article 151(c) of the International Sporting Code (see Decision of the WMSC 13 September 2007).

2.9 Recidivism is a strong indicator that the sanction previously imposed was not sufficiently deterrent and recidivism is thus a circumstance which may justify an increase in the severity of the penalty which might otherwise be imposed. The purpose of taking recidivism into account in setting a penalty is to induce teams which have demonstrated a tendency towards infringing the rules in the past to change their conduct in the future. The WMSC therefore also takes into account, as an aggravating factor, McLaren’s 2007 breach of Article 151(c) ISC.

3 Decision

3.1 The WMSC finds Vodafone McLaren Mercedes in breach of Article 151(c) ISC in relation to each of the five counts identified in the FIA’s summons to Vodafone McLaren Mercedes, reproduced at 1.18 (a) to (e) above.

3.2 Pursuant to Article 151(c) ISC and 152 ISC, seventh paragraph, the WMSC therefore replaces the sanction imposed by Decision No. 76 of the Stewards with the following:

(a) the exclusion of the driver Lewis Hamilton and the competitor Vodafone McLaren Mercedes from the race classification for the 2009 Australian Grand Prix; and

(b) the suspension of the competitor Vodafone McLaren Mercedes from three rounds of the FIA Formula One World Championship.

Exceptionally, and in light in part of the Mitigating Factors (including the open and honest way in which the Vodafone McLaren Mercedes Team Principal addressed the WMSC and the change in culture which he made clear had taken place), penalty (b) shall be suspended for twelve months from the date of this Decision. In the event that, during the period of suspension of penalty (b), either: (i) further facts emerge that are relevant to the WMSC’s assessment of the gravity of Vodafone McLaren Mercedes’ breach; or (ii) Vodafone McLaren Mercedes commits a further breach of Article 151(c), the WMSC may implement penalty (b) in relation to the breach set out in this Decision.

3.3 Vodafone McLaren Mercedes is reminded of its right of appeal. In the event that an appeal is lodged with the FIA International Court of Appeal, the effect of this Decision will not be suspended pending the outcome of that appeal.
Old 05-03-2009, 08:33 PM
  #115  
chris walrod
Guru
Lifetime Rennlist
Member


Rennlist Small
Business Sponsor

 
chris walrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: yorba linda, ca
Posts: 15,744
Received 101 Likes on 52 Posts
Default

Is it me or is the FIA making a much larger deal out of this than its worth?
Old 05-03-2009, 08:47 PM
  #116  
ltc
Super Moderator
Needs More Cowbell

Lifetime Rennlist
Member
 
ltc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 29,323
Likes: 0
Received 11 Likes on 11 Posts
Default

A. It's McLaren
B. They lied. They were given multiple opportunities to "clarify" their story (i.e. we know you're lying, are you sure you don't want to change your story...here, listen to these radio transmissions....are you sure you don't want to change your story...., they refused.
C. Hamilton went public
D. They lied
E. It's McLaren



Quick Reply: Bahrain Grand Prix



All times are GMT -3. The time now is 06:03 PM.