Bryan Watts

The problem I've seen in the DE side of things is that a lot of "advanced" instructors are teaching their students to be fearful of the rain either by calling it "way more dangerous" than the dry or by helping to provide the student with every excuse not to go out. It begins to spiral because those same students often eventually become instructors as well.

I had that experience when I was getting started...thankfully, I eventually found an instructor who loves the rain as much as I do, who wouldn't let me sit in the paddock and waste as session, going so far as to find some rain tires I could borrow.

If after a few years of doing DE's you decide for yourself that you just don't want to run in the rain, fine, don't run. But please don't go around perpetuating the myth that driving in the rain is somehow an accident just waiting to happen as if it's much safer than driving in the dry.

Impressionable newbs read what the vets have to say and turn it into fear. A vet who doesn't run in the rain because he's "been there, done that" or doesn't want to change tires and then hints about the "dangers" of rain driving causes a new student, who really needs the experience and runs on treaded street tires anyway, to stay in the paddock and warn all of their friends that if they go out on track, they are sure to come back with bent sheet metal.

Some BMW CCA Club Racers (who almost all came out of the BMW CCA and PCA DE programs) are so AFRAID of driving in the rain, than you can set your watch to their reaction to the forecast of a rain shower on the afternoon of a race. More than 1/2 the field almost always "vote" to move the race time so that we aren't forced to race in the rain...sometimes the officials give into their pleas and sometimes the officials realize that we're all adults and no one is forcing anyone to take to the track. You can feel the fear throughout the paddock when rain is in the forecast. I can only assume that this fear has been taught, because most of them never run in the rain to begin with, and few, if any have any crash stories to tell.

Rob in VA

Your student passed mine pretty quickly. I totally want to yell out to my student: "Dude, you just got passed by a Hyundai!", but I had to bite my tongue.

Reminds me of the movie: Pineapple Express -- "You just got killed by a Daewoo Lanos, motherf*cker!"

Rob in VA

I totally agree with you. One thing that makes it really tough for a novice in the rain, is well they better know what to do once traction breaks loose. At a previous event I was instructing a brand new person to the hobby at Road Atlanta in the rain. We went out for a few sessions and everything was fine up until he ratcheted up the speed turning right towards the bridge leading to the straight. He got on the gas too fast and the car started to spin and we went off track left. He admitted to not knowing what happened and had no idea it was about to happen.

In his defense even with street tires he had no warning of what was about to unfold. In the dry, the tires would have given him some audible feedback, and/or he would feel the track friction lessen. After that, we skipped the next session and went straight to the skid pad.

Bryan Watts

Skid pad should absolutely be a part of the DE program at the beginning level. Auto-x is a nice introduction to traction loss as well. Ultimately, losing traction in the rain is VERY important for a beginning student so they can get rid of bad habits that will really bit them in the **** if they make the same bad input 2-3 years down the road when pushing the limits in the dry.

It seems like you see it all of the time with advanced DE students and even fast club racers who spin and still aren't sure exactly what went wrong because they simply haven't spent enough time driving "at the limit". They aren't sure whether there was dirt on the track or whether they simply got on the throttle too hard and had the car too unbalanced. No feel.

Any now, back to extended passing...

sbelles

Not all instructors are as conscientious. Some discourage students because they don't want to go out and get soaked and cold. I don't always go out in the rain but I never discourage my students from going out as long as they have suitable tires.

NJcroc

Well, the rain suxed but there were a few good points to it all. Bravo to all that hung out and drove, still cant believe i left the full rains at home . But i believe all the students learned more about smoothness than they ever have in the past. I got to look around and check out some of the finer points of a track that I dont get to see much at full speed. I think I may even have found the fast way through turn 9

That being said Why not 1 day of dry just one is all i asked for

Mark in Baltimore

You guys are right; driving in the rain with high winds, puddles and on-track streams carries with it the same risks as driving in the dry. Let's all petition the tracks so we can run in the snow and ice during the winter. Same risks, right?

NJcroc

I have found that rain risk is actually lower since you hit going alot slower than full going full bore. Driving in the rain is a learning exp not really alot of fun since you are generally alone. Still better than staying home though

George3

I don't think anyone even hinted that the risks of driving in the rain are the same as in the dry.

What was said, was that students and/or advanced drivers shouldn't drive at the same intensity as in the dry, or over-drive their skill level.

EDIT:
Driving in the rain has proved to be an excellent learning tool, as many have confirmed. This is when the car will duplicate high speed dry driving conditions and car behavior at its utmost, but at much slower speeds. When setup and driven correctly, a lesser car can easily keep up or outpace the more powerful car in the rain. Rain is the great equalizer.

sbelles

Sounds good to me. How about trucking some down here. Sebring would be fun in the snow. Daytona would be a challange though. I think you would have to drift the banks just right to keep it up there.

RickBetterley

Sounds like ice racing is in your future (though you will have to come up north for that).
I would love to have come down for Zone 2; sure am glad I didn't, though. A 775 mile tow (each way) for 3 days of cold rain, and a tough tow back? No thanks. I didn't sign up because I can't be sure I can extract (excavate?) my truck and trailer from the snow; this year it might have been warmer here than in VA.
Other years it has been great weather, though. You never know.

RJFabCab

That was me. I came in early, by accident, sort of... I remember Pete saying 2 LAPS and they were going to black flag the session to bring everyone in. So, there I was completing my 2nd lap with no black flag in sight, I decided to pit because I thought everyone else would be in pit row WAITING for us. By the time I pulled into pit row and saw that there was nobody there, it was too late.

Myself and a SY GT3 stayed in pit lane and it's my understanding that the hot group ran an EXTRA lap due to a flagging miscommunincation/delay. So, there we sat.

I ran this exercise on cold Hoosiers sliding around all over the place. Driving in the rain, especially on slicks, can be fun and cool. Sliding into your compatriot's gorgeous speed yellow GT3 ain't so fun OR cool... no matter how you slice it.

Sure, turnout for the exercise was low but let's put this in perspective. DE is a hobby to be enjoyed on many levels. Some people don't want themselves or their cars to get wet. Cool. Some people go out no matter what. Cool. It was cold, it was wet, it was slick... I had 2 guys I know lose their GT3s in 6a. Carnage aside, I busted my **** to get to VIR this weekend, and I didn't have time to throw on my wets prior to the exercise. I went out on Hoohoos, but I wasn't about to go sliding into someone during an 'exercise'.

My student ran a E36 M3 in blue and we had a great time meeting and exceeding the limit in T2. We had a great time.

Better weather would have had the grid jam packed for the exercise.

iLLM3

Great points and I agree....!

I should have hit the skidpad in the wet but didn't :/

George was nice meeting and chatting with you, hopefully i'll see you there in June with some dry sunny weather

sbelles

Actually it was in my pasture. Almost literaly. I spent 20 in MN where we raced on all things frozen in the winter and dirt in the summer. It took me a long time to overcome the urge to turn in early when I started running on pavement.


I'm in the same boat. The weather at VIR is always iffy in March, it's a 13 hr tow and the track fund is depleted this year so I sat it out. Sorry everybody got rained on but I don't feel so bad that I missed it. It was lots of fun last year though.

George3

Martin,
Nice meeting you, too. Your car is awesome. Too bad we couldn't have diced it up in a combined run session. It would have been a lot of fun. Next time!
-G