PCA Club Racing and enduros
02-22-2009 | 06:03 PM
#31
Drifting
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,052
Likes: 68
From: Connecticut
Bruce,
Would National ever consider holding an annual national event where multiple sprints and a longer enduro would take place? That would be like the master event of the year and would be held on a rotation basis at one of the big tracks... It would be the club race event of all club race events. Sorry if this was discussed before.
Would National ever consider holding an annual national event where multiple sprints and a longer enduro would take place? That would be like the master event of the year and would be held on a rotation basis at one of the big tracks... It would be the club race event of all club race events. Sorry if this was discussed before.
I can assure you that "the lawyers" have nothing to do with our rules mandating driver changes for any enduros longer than 90 minutes (although I am a bit personally insulted by some of the lawyer bashing that goes on in some of the posts on Rennlist, especially when they have no basis in fact.)
There are several considerations:
First, are our drivers, as a group, up to longer stints behind the wheel?
The stewards and advisory committee reviewed this issue this January. There was not one member of either group who did not believe that a stint longer than 90 minutes is too long for the average PCA club racer. Both groups include members with endurance driving experience at Daytona 24 hours, Sebring 12 hours, and other longer events. All of those members were of the opinion that for the majority of our drivers, a stint longer than 90 minutes was just too long.
Sure, there are exceptions among our drivers. Some are in excellent shape. Some are very experienced at long driving stints, etc. But, for the majority of our drivers, we believe it is just too long.
The other issue that is driving the lack of longer enduros in PCA club racing is the simple fact that the national staff and the local region organizers question whether a longer enduro would receive the participation levels needed to make it worth it. It is really easy to post on the racing forum that someone is interested in driving in such an event. Unfortunately, we are skeptical that there would actually be a big turn out.
There are several reasons for this skepticism. First, our current enduros, although well attended, do see some bleeding off of numbers from sprint races at the same events. We have done some informal polling as to why that is and although there are a variety of other factors, including wanting to get home a day early,etc., for the most part it is a reluctance to want to subject the car, and most importantly its expensive engine, to the long pounding of a longer race.
We also see a reluctance on the part of most of our drivers to share cars with another driver. I, for one, don't share that reluctance but am also very careful in who I chose to co drive with me. The possible dispute arising from a "who was responsible" "who should pay" in an engine zing or car damage incident goes up dramatically when one participates in longer events.
The cost of a longer enduro also is an issue. Track rentals have gone up significantly over the last couple of years. Host regions are being squeezed. Most regions are reluctant to schedule a long enduro and risk a financial shortfall. The races at the famous tracks aren't up for longer enduros either, for essentially the opposite reason, they don't want to kill what for some regions is a cash cow.
We are excited about the possible growth of some of the less expensive classes, such as Spec Boxster and the SP classes. We believe that if there is growth in those classes it could result in a more viable possibility of a longer enduro or two, as those cars are simply less expensive to buy/build and in some instances, less expensive to run. For instance, a group of PCA racers I know ran a 944 for several years at the NASA 25 hours of Thunderhill. I believe each of them threw $2500 into the kitty and that covered the tires, gas, rental of motorhome, rebuild of car after the event, etc. The cost of tires for a cup car for a 25 hour enduro wouldn't be covered by that, let alone any other wear parts.
I can see the possibility of a longer enduro at one of our smaller events. The track needs to be set up for such an event but also needs to be one of our lower rental cost tracks. It needs a good worker corps as staffing a longer race with limited corner working staff would be very problematic. It probably needs to be located near a large number of potential entrants (which means Brainerd, or No Problem, for instance, are probably ruled out although Brainerd would be an excellent place for a longer enduro as it has a huge pit lane, nothing to hit/good run off, etc.)
My suggestion is that if you really want to see a longer enduro at your local club race you get involved in your local race and help make it happen. It's easy to post comments from your computer but event chairs are looking for workers to actually make it happen.
Thanks
Bruce Boeder
There are several considerations:
First, are our drivers, as a group, up to longer stints behind the wheel?
The stewards and advisory committee reviewed this issue this January. There was not one member of either group who did not believe that a stint longer than 90 minutes is too long for the average PCA club racer. Both groups include members with endurance driving experience at Daytona 24 hours, Sebring 12 hours, and other longer events. All of those members were of the opinion that for the majority of our drivers, a stint longer than 90 minutes was just too long.
Sure, there are exceptions among our drivers. Some are in excellent shape. Some are very experienced at long driving stints, etc. But, for the majority of our drivers, we believe it is just too long.
The other issue that is driving the lack of longer enduros in PCA club racing is the simple fact that the national staff and the local region organizers question whether a longer enduro would receive the participation levels needed to make it worth it. It is really easy to post on the racing forum that someone is interested in driving in such an event. Unfortunately, we are skeptical that there would actually be a big turn out.
There are several reasons for this skepticism. First, our current enduros, although well attended, do see some bleeding off of numbers from sprint races at the same events. We have done some informal polling as to why that is and although there are a variety of other factors, including wanting to get home a day early,etc., for the most part it is a reluctance to want to subject the car, and most importantly its expensive engine, to the long pounding of a longer race.
We also see a reluctance on the part of most of our drivers to share cars with another driver. I, for one, don't share that reluctance but am also very careful in who I chose to co drive with me. The possible dispute arising from a "who was responsible" "who should pay" in an engine zing or car damage incident goes up dramatically when one participates in longer events.
The cost of a longer enduro also is an issue. Track rentals have gone up significantly over the last couple of years. Host regions are being squeezed. Most regions are reluctant to schedule a long enduro and risk a financial shortfall. The races at the famous tracks aren't up for longer enduros either, for essentially the opposite reason, they don't want to kill what for some regions is a cash cow.
We are excited about the possible growth of some of the less expensive classes, such as Spec Boxster and the SP classes. We believe that if there is growth in those classes it could result in a more viable possibility of a longer enduro or two, as those cars are simply less expensive to buy/build and in some instances, less expensive to run. For instance, a group of PCA racers I know ran a 944 for several years at the NASA 25 hours of Thunderhill. I believe each of them threw $2500 into the kitty and that covered the tires, gas, rental of motorhome, rebuild of car after the event, etc. The cost of tires for a cup car for a 25 hour enduro wouldn't be covered by that, let alone any other wear parts.
I can see the possibility of a longer enduro at one of our smaller events. The track needs to be set up for such an event but also needs to be one of our lower rental cost tracks. It needs a good worker corps as staffing a longer race with limited corner working staff would be very problematic. It probably needs to be located near a large number of potential entrants (which means Brainerd, or No Problem, for instance, are probably ruled out although Brainerd would be an excellent place for a longer enduro as it has a huge pit lane, nothing to hit/good run off, etc.)
My suggestion is that if you really want to see a longer enduro at your local club race you get involved in your local race and help make it happen. It's easy to post comments from your computer but event chairs are looking for workers to actually make it happen.
Thanks
Bruce Boeder
02-22-2009 | 06:17 PM
#32
Rennlist Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,097
Likes: 5
From: Land of the Old People
I have done several longer enduros and really think that they are great races. I understand that it's different strokes for different folks but I REALLY think PCA should at least have ONE longer endurance race of the season. At least a 12 hour race. On an amateur level we all like to race with PCA because we're Porsche guys (and ladies) and it's the absolute best group from a competition standpoint and depth of fields/classes (at certain races). Porsche made it's name in endurance races. I think that PCA, as a national organization, should really try to do a longer race for us amateurs....
As far as your comment, I think your position on the "team" vs. the driver is too general. In a 3 hour race, the team only really matters if the driver screws up. I mean there's only fueling and a cool suit change if the driver doesn't screw up.
I would tend to agree with you if we're talking about longer than 4-6 hours. Then you're getting into tire changes, brake pad issues, etc.
02-22-2009 | 06:19 PM
#33
Rennlist Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,097
Likes: 5
From: Land of the Old People
Bruce,
Would National ever consider holding an annual national event where multiple sprints and a longer enduro would take place? That would be like the master event of the year and would be held on a rotation basis at one of the big tracks... It would be the club race event of all club race events. Sorry if this was discussed before.
Would National ever consider holding an annual national event where multiple sprints and a longer enduro would take place? That would be like the master event of the year and would be held on a rotation basis at one of the big tracks... It would be the club race event of all club race events. Sorry if this was discussed before.
Ding, ding, ding
02-22-2009 | 06:47 PM
#34
Rennlist Member
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,903
Likes: 29
I posted this in a different thread, but I think an "outside-of-the-box" solution may be something like a tag team enduro. Let's say you have a 3 hour race, it could be done with 2 people and 2 cars.
For instance, let's say I find a buddy in the same class as me, and we want to do this. I drive my car, and then at the pit stop break, we "switch", and he then drives his car. At the next pit stop, we "switch" again, and I'm back driving my car.
Some additional rules (which could be useful for people who don't have a crew) is that the car that is not on the track is allowed to go "behind the wall". However, before he does that, he must inform a scrutineer so that the scrut has a chance to impound the car. If so, the car must be legal (and meeting weight), or else the team is DQ'd.
If any car contact occurs (hitting a wall, another car, etc.) the team is DNF'd. However, if a car breaks down and can be towed in, the other team member can continue in his/her car.
Finally, if the team members are not in the same class, then they are marked as racing in the class that has the fastest lap times. For instance, let's say that I run in F class, and I team up with people in D and E class. Let's say that the fastest lap times turned by anyone in D, E, or F class came from the D class, then we are all marked as running in D class.
I think this would allow for very long enduros without having to worry about having a crew or worry about dinging up someone else's car (or someone hurting your car).
I do see the challenges that T&S would have with this, but I'm sure some creative soul could figure out how to surmount those challenges...
Thoughts?
For instance, let's say I find a buddy in the same class as me, and we want to do this. I drive my car, and then at the pit stop break, we "switch", and he then drives his car. At the next pit stop, we "switch" again, and I'm back driving my car.
Some additional rules (which could be useful for people who don't have a crew) is that the car that is not on the track is allowed to go "behind the wall". However, before he does that, he must inform a scrutineer so that the scrut has a chance to impound the car. If so, the car must be legal (and meeting weight), or else the team is DQ'd.
If any car contact occurs (hitting a wall, another car, etc.) the team is DNF'd. However, if a car breaks down and can be towed in, the other team member can continue in his/her car.
Finally, if the team members are not in the same class, then they are marked as racing in the class that has the fastest lap times. For instance, let's say that I run in F class, and I team up with people in D and E class. Let's say that the fastest lap times turned by anyone in D, E, or F class came from the D class, then we are all marked as running in D class.
I think this would allow for very long enduros without having to worry about having a crew or worry about dinging up someone else's car (or someone hurting your car).
I do see the challenges that T&S would have with this, but I'm sure some creative soul could figure out how to surmount those challenges...
Thoughts?
02-22-2009 | 06:51 PM
#35
Rennlist Member
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 41,895
Likes: 1,734
From: All Ate Up With Motor
Bruce,
Would National ever consider holding an annual national event where multiple sprints and a longer enduro would take place? That would be like the master event of the year and would be held on a rotation basis at one of the big tracks... It would be the club race event of all club race events. Sorry if this was discussed before.
Would National ever consider holding an annual national event where multiple sprints and a longer enduro would take place? That would be like the master event of the year and would be held on a rotation basis at one of the big tracks... It would be the club race event of all club race events. Sorry if this was discussed before.
02-22-2009 | 07:23 PM
#36
Rennlist Member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,473
Likes: 5
From: New York, NY
Here's a thought; why not have the enduros on Sat and the sprints on Sunday?
Who says the longer races have to be the last?
And from what I saw, the Saturday night races at Sebring were a hit.
Who says the longer races have to be the last?
And from what I saw, the Saturday night races at Sebring were a hit.
02-22-2009 | 08:10 PM
#37
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,738
Likes: 3
From: Philadelphia, Pa
Bar none, the VIR 13 and the Summit 12 hour are my favoirte events of the year. Sebring PCA is probably close, but for the atmosphere... not the racing. The long enduros are an amazing "bang for the buck" and give you insane amount of RACING track time.
The first thing I think of is cost to run a Porsche in that type of racing, as Bruce eluded. A higher level of prep IS needed. In general, the culture of PCA racing (nothing wrong with this) seems to be a lot more "protective" of their cars (rightfully so, they're damn expensive!) than other orgs. I can't imagine subjecting our cherry USA cup to the 13 hour, but I guess anything is possible with funding.
Peter, will you run the 996 cup in one of these races or rent rides? Sorry I missed meeting you at Sebring.
Kudos to Bruce, et all, for keeping an open mind... the night races at Sebring are a great example.
The first thing I think of is cost to run a Porsche in that type of racing, as Bruce eluded. A higher level of prep IS needed. In general, the culture of PCA racing (nothing wrong with this) seems to be a lot more "protective" of their cars (rightfully so, they're damn expensive!) than other orgs. I can't imagine subjecting our cherry USA cup to the 13 hour, but I guess anything is possible with funding.
Peter, will you run the 996 cup in one of these races or rent rides? Sorry I missed meeting you at Sebring.
Kudos to Bruce, et all, for keeping an open mind... the night races at Sebring are a great example.
02-22-2009 | 10:18 PM
#38
Rennlist Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,097
Likes: 5
From: Land of the Old People
No, I will do them in my '86. Cheaper and I've got LOTS of spares... Maybe we'll see each other at VIR or Summit.
