Spec series & tires
01-16-2009, 08:17 AM
#16
The Penguin King
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There's another aspect to tire performance that hasn't been raised yet.
You can have a tire which holds acceptable performance over 3,820 heat cycles and only costs $100/corner, and it can still wind up defeating the purpose of a 'spec tire' IF...
The first heat cycle is 3% better than heat cycles 2 through 3,820.
Everybody winds up slapping stickers on for every qualifying session, and sticker tires for every race. If you want to run up front.
So a tire that costs 50% or 100% more per corner, only lasts 1,000 heat cycles, BUT doesn't have that magic 'first heat cycle' performance, winds up being MUCH cheaper because there's no incentive to run stickers every time out.
At least in the past, that's what's killed Hoosier's viability for a cost-controlled spec series. And why Toyo is so popular. I don't know if Hoosier's latest gen tire is less susceptible to this issue.
You can have a tire which holds acceptable performance over 3,820 heat cycles and only costs $100/corner, and it can still wind up defeating the purpose of a 'spec tire' IF...
The first heat cycle is 3% better than heat cycles 2 through 3,820.
Everybody winds up slapping stickers on for every qualifying session, and sticker tires for every race. If you want to run up front.
So a tire that costs 50% or 100% more per corner, only lasts 1,000 heat cycles, BUT doesn't have that magic 'first heat cycle' performance, winds up being MUCH cheaper because there's no incentive to run stickers every time out.
At least in the past, that's what's killed Hoosier's viability for a cost-controlled spec series. And why Toyo is so popular. I don't know if Hoosier's latest gen tire is less susceptible to this issue.
01-16-2009, 08:52 AM
#18
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The GREAT thing about the toyos, is that there is not that much difference between a new toyo and a corded one. with hoosiers, there can be 2-4 seconds if it is cooked well enough. For a spec series, its important to remove as many variables as possible to make it fair for all budgets.
Toyos make a spec series work for those reasons..
mk
Toyos make a spec series work for those reasons..
mk
01-16-2009, 08:56 AM
#19
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Thread Starter
There's another aspect to tire performance that hasn't been raised yet.
You can have a tire which holds acceptable performance over 3,820 heat cycles and only costs $100/corner, and it can still wind up defeating the purpose of a 'spec tire' IF...
The first heat cycle is 3% better than heat cycles 2 through 3,820.
Everybody winds up slapping stickers on for every qualifying session, and sticker tires for every race. If you want to run up front.
So a tire that costs 50% or 100% more per corner, only lasts 1,000 heat cycles, BUT doesn't have that magic 'first heat cycle' performance, winds up being MUCH cheaper because there's no incentive to run stickers every time out.
At least in the past, that's what's killed Hoosier's viability for a cost-controlled spec series. And why Toyo is so popular. I don't know if Hoosier's latest gen tire is less susceptible to this issue.
You can have a tire which holds acceptable performance over 3,820 heat cycles and only costs $100/corner, and it can still wind up defeating the purpose of a 'spec tire' IF...
The first heat cycle is 3% better than heat cycles 2 through 3,820.
Everybody winds up slapping stickers on for every qualifying session, and sticker tires for every race. If you want to run up front.
So a tire that costs 50% or 100% more per corner, only lasts 1,000 heat cycles, BUT doesn't have that magic 'first heat cycle' performance, winds up being MUCH cheaper because there's no incentive to run stickers every time out.
At least in the past, that's what's killed Hoosier's viability for a cost-controlled spec series. And why Toyo is so popular. I don't know if Hoosier's latest gen tire is less susceptible to this issue.
01-16-2009, 09:18 AM
#20
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01-16-2009, 10:09 AM
#25
Race Director
944 spec went to a spec tire back Jan 2003. The reason was to level the playing field and to limit costs. The RA-1 was the perfect spec tire.
The reason the RA-1 was so good was a number of things.
1) Initial cost - Cost per tire was reasonable. Not the cheapest, but not $200 each either.
2) Long life - The tire would last forever before cording. It was also a tire that at 25 heat cycles could still cut some very very fast laps. So if the active life was 25+ heat cycles the per day or per session cost was very reasonable.
3) Equal performance- The tire is very consistant over is life. In fact new tires in our class were less desireable than old ones. So no body want to slap on stickers to win. We just ran old stuff. I know some guys would dumpster drive old RA-1's and still win on them.
4) Rain option. Due to the tread design they worked great as rains. Also shaving or not once past 4-5 heat cycles they were all the same so this mean you could buy full tread and wait for rain. If it never came or happen 1 session you could just put those tires in the normal dry rotation. So you never had to worry about a dedicated rain tire getting old.
5) Toyo contingency takes the edge off the prices.
6) The tire is just plain durable. You could beat the stuffing out of it on track and never seem to hurt it. This is ideal for newer drivers. Heck put some minor flat spots on the fronts and move them to the rear and keep going.
Now due to Toyo's position on the RA-1 vs R888 we have shifted to the R888 for 2008 and 2009. There is much talk about the RA-1 vs R888. Bottomline is for now we are and R888 class. Some of the issues are people expecting identical performance as they got with the RA-1. It won't happen like that.
Really the biggsst issue I have with any spec tire is life and useful life at that. Right now I can't say where we are at on the R888's.
Now for any class to have a spec tire one of the major concern is sizes. The best way to work this is to have limited sizes in the class. 944 spec allows only the 225/50 R15 tire. However if you allow any size then a spec tire becomes hard since that tire may not be offered in all the sizes desired by the racers. For this reason alone many classes just can't go with a spec tire.
Oh one other benefit of a spec tire...
No testing! So when the next "new best tire" comes out nobody needs to test anything. They are all on the same tire anyway. If you are speced on Toyo's and Hoosirer comes out with something better... so what. same for any othe mfg. Of course when you spec tire mfg changes something it can cause a lot of complaining with folks tring to learn something new like we are now.
The reason the RA-1 was so good was a number of things.
1) Initial cost - Cost per tire was reasonable. Not the cheapest, but not $200 each either.
2) Long life - The tire would last forever before cording. It was also a tire that at 25 heat cycles could still cut some very very fast laps. So if the active life was 25+ heat cycles the per day or per session cost was very reasonable.
3) Equal performance- The tire is very consistant over is life. In fact new tires in our class were less desireable than old ones. So no body want to slap on stickers to win. We just ran old stuff. I know some guys would dumpster drive old RA-1's and still win on them.
4) Rain option. Due to the tread design they worked great as rains. Also shaving or not once past 4-5 heat cycles they were all the same so this mean you could buy full tread and wait for rain. If it never came or happen 1 session you could just put those tires in the normal dry rotation. So you never had to worry about a dedicated rain tire getting old.
5) Toyo contingency takes the edge off the prices.
6) The tire is just plain durable. You could beat the stuffing out of it on track and never seem to hurt it. This is ideal for newer drivers. Heck put some minor flat spots on the fronts and move them to the rear and keep going.
Now due to Toyo's position on the RA-1 vs R888 we have shifted to the R888 for 2008 and 2009. There is much talk about the RA-1 vs R888. Bottomline is for now we are and R888 class. Some of the issues are people expecting identical performance as they got with the RA-1. It won't happen like that.
Really the biggsst issue I have with any spec tire is life and useful life at that. Right now I can't say where we are at on the R888's.
Now for any class to have a spec tire one of the major concern is sizes. The best way to work this is to have limited sizes in the class. 944 spec allows only the 225/50 R15 tire. However if you allow any size then a spec tire becomes hard since that tire may not be offered in all the sizes desired by the racers. For this reason alone many classes just can't go with a spec tire.
Oh one other benefit of a spec tire...
No testing! So when the next "new best tire" comes out nobody needs to test anything. They are all on the same tire anyway. If you are speced on Toyo's and Hoosirer comes out with something better... so what. same for any othe mfg. Of course when you spec tire mfg changes something it can cause a lot of complaining with folks tring to learn something new like we are now.
01-16-2009, 11:01 PM
#26
Ironman 140.6
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01-17-2009, 10:12 AM
#27
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That was true before the R6s showed up. That has not been my experience with the R6s.
I was never able to cord a set of MPSCs with my heavy (3200) car I ran them on, but they heat cycled out to Flintstone tires and had to be replaced. I run the R6s on lighter cars (2600 and 2850lbs) and while they drop off a little after the first 2 - 3 days (Red group DEs), they then are still very good for many heat cycles until they too become Flintstones. YMMV.
I was never able to cord a set of MPSCs with my heavy (3200) car I ran them on, but they heat cycled out to Flintstone tires and had to be replaced. I run the R6s on lighter cars (2600 and 2850lbs) and while they drop off a little after the first 2 - 3 days (Red group DEs), they then are still very good for many heat cycles until they too become Flintstones. YMMV.
01-17-2009, 11:51 AM
#28
01-17-2009, 12:52 PM
#29
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The GREAT thing about the toyos, is that there is not that much difference between a new toyo and a corded one. with hoosiers, there can be 2-4 seconds if it is cooked well enough. For a spec series, its important to remove as many variables as possible to make it fair for all budgets.
Toyos make a spec series work for those reasons..
mk
Toyos make a spec series work for those reasons..
mk
01-17-2009, 01:42 PM
#30
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A few of the points that have been touched upon above and one's that I would agree with are:
Manufacture involvement in the series -- contingency program
Performance delta between stickers and corded -- a good spec tire shouldnt perform much different at either end of its life
Cost -- while racing is expensive, and a tires may not be the largest expense, they need to be reasonably priced
Manufacture involvement in the series -- contingency program
Performance delta between stickers and corded -- a good spec tire shouldnt perform much different at either end of its life
Cost -- while racing is expensive, and a tires may not be the largest expense, they need to be reasonably priced