ninjabones

I've read the PCA, SCCA and NASA rule book regarding cages and have searched long and hard through prior forum threads. I'm having a hard time determining whether gussets between the cage and A & B pillars an/or roof are allowed. It appears that they are not forbidden in PCA stock classes. General consensus among those with whom I have spoken is that it is forbidden in NASA GTS Challenge series. However, the sections in the NASA rule book that even remotely cover this issue are vague.

15.6.2 Intent
Chassis stiffening is a side benefit of a good roll cage system, but it is not the intent of
these rules. Parts of the cage deemed by the Chief Scrutineer, to serve no practical
purpose other than chassis stiffening may be considered in violation of the intent of
these rules (Note: Some class rules allow for chassis stiffening.). The Chief Scrutineer
may order the removal of said parts, or require that the vehicle owner redesign,
reconstruct, and re-certify the roll cage if warranted. The removal or redesign of the
cage, whole or in part, to comply with these rules, does not imply that penalties will not
be issued for violating the intent of these rules.

15.6.13 Mounting Points
The roll cage shall be mounted to the floor of the car in six, seven, or eight points. The
cage shall not go through the firewall. The seventh and eighth points must attach to the
firewall or front fender wells. All cage attachment points must be mounted to plates.
Each required cage bar shall terminate on a plate with a 360 degree weld to the
mounting plate, except as specified in Section 15.6.14.B. There shall be only one (1)
mounting “point” per plate. This point is defined as where the “required tube” mounts.
All additional tubes mounted to that plate must be mounted as close to the required tube
as possible [Ref: (15.6.14.B)].


Would there be any reason besides "chassis stiffening" to gusset the cage to the A/B pillars and/or roof in order to justify an exception to the exclusions in section 15.6.2?


Section 15.6.13 specifically covers limitations in the number of mounting points to the "floor of the car", but does not specifically allow or prohibit mounting points in other locations.

Anyone know how I can get a definitive answer on this (ie., contact info for scrute with NASA)?

Bryan Watts

PCA STOCK class allows you to gusset the cage to the chassis in as many locations as you want? That sounds unlikely at first read due to the limitations put on cages in similar stock/prepared/IT categories in SCCA, BMW CCA, etc, but I don't know anything about PCA rules. Perhaps they work like BMW CCA rules where the rules need to be read with the attitude of "if it doesn't say you CAN, you CAN'T"?

As for NASA GTS, the rules specifically allow for additional bracing and gussets in Section 4.0:

"Additional roll cage bracing and construction is allowed and recommended."

All of that said, you could make a safety argument for most any tube or sheet metal gusset if you really wanted to.

M758

Tying the cage A & B pillars to the body are legal in some NASA classes. GTS they are legal since GTS is really open stuff like that. They are also legal in 944 spec. However for Classes like Performance Touring in NASA they are legal, but you take "points" for them. This means they can work against you.

They maybe illegal in some NASA classes, but if you run in GTS or PT/ST you are ok with them.

BTW... NASA CCR's and tech inspectors are mostly concerned about the cage being safe. If there are issues about there being too many points and such that issue defaults to whatever the class is that the car is going to run it.

Professor Helmüt Tester

In NASA & SCCA, "gussets between the cage and the A & B pillars" are "attachment points", whether they're on the floor or the pillars. They'll count to the 6-7-8 "points" you're allowed. There are classes that allow greater connection of cage-to-shell, but that's generally well-spelled-out in the rules.

Gussets and braces "within the body of the cage" (i.e. only connecting cage members together) are what are being referred to in the rules, when they're mentioned.

Talk to a cage builder experienced in the classes & sanctioning bodies that you intend to race with.

For decades I've watched people try to make arguments that "additional cage mounting points" and seam-welding and blah blah blah are actually for "safety", when in reality they're for chassis stiffing. When/if you try this, you'll know that the Scrutineer's eyes will roll back in his head and he'll start humming or moaning. That's just his way of resisting the "bitch-slap" urge.

Really.

jscott82

Glen,

Im pretty sure they are NOT allowed in PCA stock...

ninjabones

See this thread. Apparently, Mark Lee did get a written ruling from Donna Amico in 2007 that gusseting the cage to the pillars and/or roof was allowed for his 993 (G class). From the people I've asked, the general consensus is that for NASA GTS challenge, the scrutes are only interested in assuring that the cage is safe. However, I'd like to get approval in writing before committing to this type of cage construction (as most other racing organizations prohibit additional cage attachment points). My car is with Mitch Piper as we speak, so I have to make a decision relatively quickly.

Gasser

I have them in my 993 G class car. So do all my racing buddies. This is in PCA racing BTW.

Jeff

Mark in Baltimore

Glen, why not write to NASA/PCA and have documented proof that one way or the other is okay? I can't find the documentation stating that PCA has approved of A and B pillar gussets but know for a fact that I did not pull it out of my keister.

John H

When NASA (for GTS Challenge) scrutinized my cage, all they looked at was whether the welds were 360 degrees. I have gussets but they are cage to cage points not to the body.

ninjabones

There are additional specific GTS Challenge rules posted on the NASA website. It states that "any modification to the car is allowed subject to the following restrictions". In the remaining document, there is nothing mentioned about restrictions in mounting points for the cage.

4.0
Car Modifications
Any modification to the car is allowed subject to the following restrictions.
All GTS cars must use an engine originally built by the manufacturer of the car’s chassis (i.e. any Porsche may use any Porsche engine). Swapping engines between different chassis made by the same manufacturer is allowed, but swapping engines of different marques into different chassis is specifically not allowed. Cars that have competed in a GTS race prior to 11/07 may have different marque engines swaps and may change back to original engine manufacturer at any time. However, such cars cannot switch to another engine of a different manufacturer such as moving from a Chevrolet V8 to Ford V8 in a Porsche chassis.
Additional roll cage bracing and construction is allowed and recommended. Tube frame cars will be classed according to the Non-D.O.T. table regardless of tire choice. Tube frame cars running Non-D.O.T. tires will be bumped into the next higher class. “Tube frame” is defined as any car that does not retain the manufacturer’s stock unit body or chassis. Modification of suspension and drivetrain mounting points alone does not constitute a tube frame.

JoeMag

I agree with Glen's post above. I've seen lots of cars in gts where the cage welded to the tub. However, as other's have said, check with local scrut.

M758

Glen,
The rules allow in GTS. So if you are planning GTS you are fine.


I you wan to run the car in PCA or another other org you might have an issue. Those are allowed in my 944 spec car and run that in NASA almost exlcusively. However I have never attached those points because if I ever sell the car I want to convertable to most any racing org spec.

ninjabones

Okay, I spoke with Joe Casella (Northeast Regional NASA director) on the phone today and he assured me that the gusset question is non-issue for GTS challenge (and most other NASA racing classes for that matter). Still awaiting official word from Donna Amico

ninjabones

Here's the official word from PCA:

"...Yes, you are allowed to add add gussets between the cage and the pillars or roof. We have no restrictions on the number of attachment points for the cage – we just do not allow the cage to go outside the passenger compartment in stock classes... You can also cut the dash for the knee bar and go through the vents to take the cage along the A-pillar. The plate with the toggle switches does finish things off nicely and consequently is allowed: neatness is appreciated! It is fairly common for the ignition to be replaced with a toggle switch as part of defeating the steering wheel lock; some race series require the steering wheel lock to be disabled or removed, although PCA does not."

JoeMag

Glenn -- Donna did mention something that is supposed to happen for NASA and that is the removal of the steering lock. Not sure how much that's checked though.