Techno Duck

I was just wondering how others felt about the way the 6pt harnesses are setup in my car. My instructor this weekend at Pocono criticized the way the sub belts are setup and chose not to use the sub belt at all. He said i needed the sub hole in the seat. I personally felt this setup was acceptable but it did leave a little doubt in my mind and figure i ask for the general consensus.

The harnesses were setup like this by the previous owner who DE'ed this car exclusively. It has been tech'ed like this by atleast 3 different independent Porsche shops in the area that never said anything about it either. And in my ownership have done one other DE where both instructors (i rode with a different instructor on my last run because my original had a unfortunate incounter off track in his car) didnt say anything about the harness setup.

I understand the concerns of my instructor this weekend because afterall, its his safety on the line, in my car with my provided equipment and i do respect his opinion .. and do not want an instructor to feel unsafe in my car on the track.

Basically the car has Momo reclining seats mounted to Wedge Engineering adapters (to fit the bolt spacing). The inner lap belt and inner sub belt are mounted to the provided tab on the Wedge Engineering bracket. The outter lap belt and outter sub belt are mounted to the factory seat belt mounting point. Both ends of the lap belt use bolt ends and are mounted to the points using eye bolts. The sub belt has snap hooks on the end that connect to the eye bolts.

The sub belt is then laid ontop of the seat cushion, basically you sit on the sub belt and strap in.



Here is the outer mounting point..



And the inner..



Is this acceptable?

I am a firm believer in not skimping on safety equipment, but does this warrant me spending another $1500 in new seats (Recaro Speed recliners with sub holes stiched in) and new 5pt harnesses? Some may ask why even bother with recliners and to go with a fixed back. I had a Sparco Pro2000 in my '87 n/a and while it held me in great.. for a car that see's plenty of street use i simply cannot justify a fixed seat.

dmoffitt

IMO, no. Just pull out the sub belts, they aren't doing a damn thing other than as a placebo and as one more obstacle to egress should you wreck / catch fire. Get a proper seat if you want to run them - I've heard/read you aren't supposed to cut a seat to run them through (which makes sense).

I hear you re: not wanting to skimp on safety but also not wanting a fixed back, but I daily-drove a car w/ fixed buckets for over a year and never seemed to mind / miss the recline - it meant buying a seat that fit ME like a glove and saying to heck with anyone else who wanted to drive it, but considering the seats in my current car don't even have sliders, well, I have no problem with that attitude

GT3 Chuck

I would agree with your instructor....as they are configured they are useless and could be dangerous in a heavy impact...unless they make you feel better and you are not concerned that they could hamper you getting out, I would remove them...

Capt. Carrera

Your setup complies with what is spelled out in the SCCA GCR. Since I can't tell much from your photos, I suggest you have an SCCA steward inspect the setup, and tell you what they think.


(PS: I've seen some really bad belt installs in instructor's cars.)

Greg Smith

Isn't that how formula cars have their sub belts mounted? Of course that's not a direct comparison because their seats seats are mounted at a different angle. I would call up HMS Motorsport.

I don't understand your instructors reasoning for not using them, using a 5+ point harness without substraps is very dangerous(because you can submarine... duh). Your sub straps might not be optimal, but I would say they're better than nothing.

EDIT-I would also say you're better off to have all your belts mounted to the car, not some to the car and some to the seat.

Techno Duck

So sitting on the sub belt is a no no? BTW, for anyone confused with what i was saying in the original post, you basically sit on the sub strap and strap in..similar to how a repelling harness goes around the legs / crotch area.

I do not want to go with a fixed back because they do not take kindly to using the 3-pt belt..and no way in heck am i going to run a 6pt on the street like i did with the '87. Its just far to much hassle for a car that only sees a handful of DE's per year. My 951 is daily driven from April through November. I tried a fixed back on my '87 n/a and just couldnt get used to it. No rear seat access is a small, but notable inconvenience. Buckling in a 5pt harness everytime i need to go around the block to get something, another inconvenience....etc. Mind you i like my cars loud, my ride stiff and dont mind some driver discomfort (a/c delete also), but it was just too much for me.

$1500 on new recliners with sub holes isnt the end of the world, as i can always sell whats in the car right now to recoup some of the cost.. but with that i still figure this is going to run over $1000 to get the new seats.

dmoffitt

Race buckets can be 3-point friendly - look at the GT3 RS


I didn't realize what you said re: sitting on them, my bad - but I'd still wonder about if that was really effective vs a mounting point forward and below you, since you would be moving forward w/ in most incidents.

Techno Duck

Im aware you can mount the 3pt belts like that, but i can imagine having to remove the seat each time to get the harnesses routed through next to the center console (when you want run the 3pt vs the harness). I tried setting it up like that when i was using the Pro2000, but there was no way the factory female 3pt end was going to fit through the lap belt slot. Atleast not without a custom one made, that used a harness (instead of a metal plate) attachment to the mounting point.

38D

The "parachute" setup you have is the standard when you don't have a sub hole. Not wearing a sub was just plain foolish by your instructor. Hopefully John H will chine in as he knows lots about these setups.

genikz

I'm no expert, but I suggest you read Schroth's documentation on proper harness mounting:
http://www.schrothracing.com/main/Documents

I sometimes drive to and from the track without the anti-submarine belts clipped in because it's more comfortable, but it's really sketchy. The lap belts ride way to high (ie my internal organs could be toast in a hard impact). The lap belts are supposed to be as low as possible. Also, if I jerk myself forward without the anti-sub belts attached, I move much farther forward than if I had them attached and could really tighten the belts down properly.

DrJupeman

Not to recreate discussions that have been had 100x before in this forum, but I thought the "anti-submarine" purpose of these belts was really not applicable for sedan driving and that the primary purpose of the belt in a sedan was to hold the lap belt in place. The anti-submarine is more for "lie down" driving a la F1, etc. Am I remembering these past discussions incorrectly?

Larry Herman

I agree with Colin. The setup is acceptable even in a sedan as the inertia from the lower body will drag you under your belts (I read that in a few places), and will keep the lap belt from riding up. What it will not do is to keep you planted in the seat in the event of a roll-over. FWIW I ran a "7 point" Team Tech setup that had both the "parachute type" leg harnesses and a sub belt. Best of both worlds as it addressed both problems and was very comfortable. It does require a sub hole though.

sjanes

+1. Dude is nuts to wear only the 4pts and not the sub.

Techno Duck

Regarding my instructor, when i looked over in staging and saw he was not using the sub belt i infact felt a little uncomfortable seeing it. I didnt say anything about it though. He was a great instructor, though i did scare him a bit coming out of turn #1 at Pocono North.. i went in a bit to hot.. the sight of the white GT3 coming up on my tail as fast as it was in the rear view mirror was a bit distracting. I learned to not care so much about who is behind me (thats not to say its not important to know 'whats' behind me).

VaSteve

I have 6 points in my 944 S2 and have the stock belts with fixed back seats. I used the Break Krause mount on the tunnel side and attached the sub and the female end of the belt to that since I didn't want to drill the tunnel as I had on my 86. I drilled the subs through the floor (on either side of the big disc in the center - not through it) since I had a setup similar to that and it wouldn't pass tech in my region.