Congo

That would be great to see, but I don't think the SCCA would do a good job with a new Trans-Am Series. They didn't like it when the original one became so high profile.

Matt Marks

Too much drivel to go back and quote MTosi here....

Q: How did Michael Schumacher get his first F1 ride? (Jordan at Spa - 92?)

A: Willi Weber went to Eddie Jordan and asked how much it would cost for a test, followed by the drive when Gachot went to the clink. Answer was $300k

Weber goes to Mercedes and gets them to pony up the cash. Long story short. MS was in fact a "pay" driver.

Does that mean he was a no-talent poser wishing that he could succeed the hard way?

What about Lauda taking a personal loan that he would never be able to repay just to buy a season of F2 and get noticed? Knowing that he was now forced to succeed.

so - here are two prime examples of 10 world championships who rented rides to get their start...

MTosi

So how does that relate to suggesting sportscar racing fields filled with gentlemen drivers are a sign of poor health [of the series]?

Potomac-Greg

That was the intent of my original post. It is by no means an overnight transition; but if there is success, the drop-off of paying drivers is inevitable. If you look at the current DP class, they have lots of paid drivers, and most are "transitional" either headed up the food chain or down.

Totally OT, I like to watch the non-professionals out there. Sure some of them do not belong, but a lot of them are damn solid drivers, or at least putting forth a good effort. I have a lot more in common with a 50 year old gentleman racer than a 19 year old karting champ.

DWalker

MTosi while I dont think your a complete idiot, your getting pretty close-

I WORKED for, as in- SUSTAINED MY MEAGER EXISTENCE- for many of the "gentleman racers" over the years and you have a lot to learn before you begin talking about professional racing.

1> There is not one single sportscar fan I have ever talked to that gave a single thought to HOW the cars or drivers got into the feild. They only care about the action on the track and some of the back stories. NASCAR incidentally, has done a superlative job of making its "professional" drivers more human to appeal to millions of fans worldwide. They dont watch those taxicab drivers because they think they are the best drivers in the world, they watch them because they think those drivers are just normal folk like themselves out there in really fast cars, not much different from those fellows they watch on thier local dirt track. NASCAR markets these normal, hardworking guys relentlessly until they are near-household names, even if you know nothing at all about NASCAR. Sportscar racing on the other hand has NOT done a decent job of marketting its drivers in many years- they are trying to change that but its an uphill battle after having lost so much ground over the years.

2> NASCAR does indeed have its "arrive and drive" paying racers. A few years ago the Busch series was in such a bad state that a team was paid just to qualify- they needed the car count for thier TV contract! If a team has "sponsor trouble" but the fans like them, Nascar subsidizes the team until they are back in good standing. Also never forget that NASCAR is simply a show. If you believe for more than two seconds that this is a legitimate form of motor racing your even blinder than I thought. The reality is you are not watching the best drivers in the world, you are watching the best-scripted made for TV program ever and even "professional" wrestling takes a back seat to NASCAR. Do you really think Bill would let one of his stars be sidelined because of a little thing like money? NASCARs TV package alone is a billion dollars, what do they care if they need to "help" a team with a contribution or two as long as the ratings are up? You very seriously need to STOP thinking of NASCAR (what you are considering NASCAR anyway) as motor racing compared to any other motor sport out there.

3>You for some reason think that because a driver is paid he is professional, and a driver who is paying to be there is not. This is a fallacy and you need to spend some time in pro racing BEFORE you make these comments of yours. I cannot give details, but I have worked in Pro racing and know what it costs to win a championship, and it doesnt matter who signs the check, be it team owner, driver, some corporate sponsor, or Grandma back home- all that matters is that the check clears and you make it to the track. Professionalism is what you DO, it is not what you ARE- being paid as a driver only means you can convince someone to sign a check- nothing more, nothing less. Its the same in NASCAR and any other racing series in the world. If you for some reason (and I think you do, and need to gtf over it) believe that just because you have some skill you should just quit driving now, because your going to be a bitter unhappy person. There are hundreds if not thousands of very talented drivers out there. Drivers who are better than you, better than half the guys in the NASCAR feild, hell maybe better than all the racing greats EVER- and it doesnt matter at all if they cant come up with the money to get in the seat. HOW they come up with it is not important (as long as its legal- dont really need a replay of the Road Atlanta deal), as long as the car makes it to the track.

Now, on a personal note- you seem to think for some reason that as long as you have SKILL, you are set. That because sportscar racing is full of gentleman racer hacks you cant "get your shot" but if it were more like NASCAR with its "professional" paid drivers you might actually have a chance. Wake up Sally- nothing is farther from the truth and wishing and bitching and moaning will not change that. The MANAGEMENT of sportscar racing, the in-fighting and BS amonsgt its past and current owners, the CART/Indycar debacle, the downfall of Trans-AM, and the constant manuevering of NASCAR in regards to press, TV time, etc., are what has hurt sportscar racing, NOT who writes the check and shows up to race. Hell IMSA changed its name so many times Im surprised anyone could keep up with it! NASCAR, being a scripted TV show, is easy for its fans to understand and relate to. Sportscar racing is constantly changing and is harder for your average knucklehead to understand and even harder for him to explain to his wife. You cant go into Wal-Mart and buy a T-shirt with Randy Pobst face on it over his car, because you simply never know which car hes driving in which series! Your average American "motorsports" fan could care less and wants it all spoon fed to them. NASCAR knows this and has managed to turn out a very nicely prepackaged motorsports product- kinda the McDonalds of racing. Sportscar racing on the professional level on the other hand requires dedication to even watch the races and devotion to figure out the drivers, the cars, etc. Why do you think all the DP's look alike? Because then its easier for NASCAR fans to understand whats going on when all they need to do is decide if they like the Coke car or the Pepsi car, the Lexus or the Pontiac.

MTosi

First of all I should have clarified, I was referring to Sprint Cup which makes a large part of the above irrelevant.

Second I fail to see where we disagree, except yout seem to think the vast majority of the American public is stupid and doesn't like sportscar racing because it's to difficult to understand. I think they don't pay attention for other reasons.

and I quote......

I happen to think that would be a great day in sportscar racing, and I quote once again....

C.J. Ichiban

now that's how you debate.

wanna911

How many drivers can race without big sponsorship these days??? Seems to me that if a driver is racing, someone is still paying big bucks whether the driver is getting paid or not.

But

It also seems appearant that every driver has to make the transition from "daddy (or someone) pay" to getting paid. Rolex seems to be a combination of both and there are guys that are getting paid running next to guys who's ways have been paid for. And it's not the series fault, road racing just isnt that big here to pay the number of drivers that are racing. And racing costs a fortune. So there is no reason for the "hating".


If you had a daddy that would pay for you to race, would you deny it?? I thought so.

Potomac-Greg

This is, IMHO, is a huge issue. Fans need something to CONNECT with; and it seems like sportscar racing does everything it can (organizationally) to avoid long term connections.

If you loved the RS6-CTS-V wars from a few years ago, you're now adrift. One of many great rivalries that simply disappeared.

It's hard to keep track of drivers. They move from team-to-team and between different series. In NASCAR, they've limited to drivers to 3 or 4 possible first names (Darryl, Randy...) and 4 possible last names (Labonte, Waltrip...).;-)

Is it called Rolex, or Grand Am, or Crown Royal? Is it World Challenge or Speed World Challenge? How can I set my Tivo to record a race series when it's got three or more names? The root of the problem is naming a racing series after a sponsor, and having that change too frequently. Winston Cup became Nextel Cup; but that happened ONCE and people still know NASCAR.

Sean F

Please....

Potomac-Greg

What's cool about a threaded forum, is that if you lose interest in a discussion, you can choose not to click on that thread. Unless of course you're trying to suggest that there's something wrong with the discussion or the people having it.

DWalker

Its all revelant when dealing with NASCAR.

I strongly disagree with your statements:

>You watch NASCAR because you are watching the best drivers. You reach the conclusion they are the best because they are paid. The fallacy with your conclusion is that NASCAR at the top level is largely a scripted production and the drivers are not so much chosen for ability, but for marketability.

>Professional Sportscar Racing has suffered because of the "gentleman racer". You draw your conclusion based on the premise that if there were more paid "Professional" drivers then the series would flourish, manna would fall from heaven, and those lads blessed with more skill than dollars would have an equal chance to make it big since "big name" sponsors would flock to this newfound advertising opportunity. Well, you need to wake up, because professional sportscar racing in this country suffers due to bad management and the very nature of the sport itself, NOT because fo the talent behind the wheel or whose writing the check.



Once again you prove your ignorance. What do you think Paul Newman is? Newman and others like him are the lifeblood of sportscar racing in this country. Sportscar racing was founded by the "gentleman racing" and I pray that I fail to live to see the day when the gentleman racer, the guy using his own money to participate in the sport he loves, is gone from professional sportscar racing.

MTosi

Do you seriously think drivers like Joey Lagono and Kyle Busch have been picked on marketability???????

I can answer the question for you [of what I think] but I can't understand it for you....

It would help if you actually read what I said, understand it (yes it's bit confusing), then you could get over calling me ignorant and stupid....

Veloce Raptor

I am closing this thread. It has become worthless.