You can't win all your DEs.........
#76
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I got here late, but a few observations:
1) Properly done in a 911, turn 7 is entered with some throttle, it is more downhill than it looks and the back end will feel loose unless you transfer weight back there.
2) On the proper line, you can go full throttle well before the apex and stay flat all the way through - we did this together later in the event as I recall.
3) Bruce nailed it, youdid save it and had you simply gone straight on the grass without any braking you would have re-entered the track farther down the road. It was the steering correction that caused the spin.
4) You were lucky and you did the right thing with two feet in which prevented you from crossing and hitting the tire wall on the right side. Someone else did that at that event as you recall. That's the reason there are tires in front of the guard rail at the point .. it happens a lot.
Enjoyed my ride with you, sorry it was later in the event than I'd have liked. Still maintain my suggestion you get better tires
1) Properly done in a 911, turn 7 is entered with some throttle, it is more downhill than it looks and the back end will feel loose unless you transfer weight back there.
2) On the proper line, you can go full throttle well before the apex and stay flat all the way through - we did this together later in the event as I recall.
3) Bruce nailed it, youdid save it and had you simply gone straight on the grass without any braking you would have re-entered the track farther down the road. It was the steering correction that caused the spin.
4) You were lucky and you did the right thing with two feet in which prevented you from crossing and hitting the tire wall on the right side. Someone else did that at that event as you recall. That's the reason there are tires in front of the guard rail at the point .. it happens a lot.
Enjoyed my ride with you, sorry it was later in the event than I'd have liked. Still maintain my suggestion you get better tires
#78
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I am far from driving well or be race worthy, but I always make it a mission to get instructors like you and Bob R. to ride with me and try to learn as much as I can..........
I wish I could, I really love that track.......
Until next year.......
#79
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Since it's not advisable to have too many of these "experiences" , the best way to learn this is to take a RW car on an empty frozen parking lot in winter and practice. The more slippery surface at lower speeds will pretty accurately replicate a less lippery surface (grass, dirt) at higher speeds.
And yes, I have had this confirmed in practice, both on ice and on dirt.
Just my $0.02
Z.
06 Boxster S (stock)
#84
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Trust me, I have always outfitted every set of trailer keys with an opener, from my racing days on the west coast 35 years ago, through hydroplane racing, and up to now. A man must be prepared!
#85
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I'm confused. I'm not a racer or an instructor (about to enter White at DE) but I've done a lot of winter driving in many RWD (rear wheel drive) cars (including russian Lada's) and to me "sliding straight" sounds like an oxymoron. The only way to safely GO straight is if you try everything NOT to slide, and "both feet in" will guarantee that you slide and lose control. Better to just maintain throttle (or depending on speed, just press the clutch to disengage the engine from the wheels) and disturb the car as little as possible so that the wheels keep rolling (not sliding) on top of the slippery surface. That will maximize the chances of it going straight. As speed is being scrubbed off, then you can start thinking about very smooth steering. Of course estimating lateral forces on the tires over slippery surface at speed is the trick here and it only comes with experience.
Since it's not advisable to have too many of these "experiences" , the best way to learn this is to take a RW car on an empty frozen parking lot in winter and practice. The more slippery surface at lower speeds will pretty accurately replicate a less slippery surface (grass, dirt) at higher speeds.
And yes, I have had this confirmed in practice, both on ice and on dirt.
Just my $0.02
Z.
06 Boxster S (stock)
Since it's not advisable to have too many of these "experiences" , the best way to learn this is to take a RW car on an empty frozen parking lot in winter and practice. The more slippery surface at lower speeds will pretty accurately replicate a less slippery surface (grass, dirt) at higher speeds.
And yes, I have had this confirmed in practice, both on ice and on dirt.
Just my $0.02
Z.
06 Boxster S (stock)
http://www.trackaddicts.net/index.ph...d=44&Itemid=72
Originally Posted by track addicts
“Into a spin, both feet in,” Brian had said, alluding to the fact that proper etiquette dictated the necessity for both brake and clutch pedals to be depressed in the event of an off road excursion or “speed farming” incident as we like to call it in the racing world. Being resigned to the probability of my car rolling sideways and collapsing on my head, I had a rather clear mind and determined that if my time was up I was going to do my best to go out with my middle finger up. The tiny Civic rotated towards the passenger side door as it bounced off a ripple in the ground, so I turned my wheel a full rotation to the right, angling the tires into the roll as I assumed I was supposed to. Three more whiplash inducing second later, I came to rest in front of the observation tower, right side up and looking at the track from a hundred feet away.
#86
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I'm confused. I'm not a racer or an instructor (about to enter White at DE) but I've done a lot of winter driving in many RWD (rear wheel drive) cars (including russian Lada's) and to me "sliding straight" sounds like an oxymoron. The only way to safely GO straight is if you try everything NOT to slide, and "both feet in" will guarantee that you slide and lose control. Better to just maintain throttle (or depending on speed, just press the clutch to disengage the engine from the wheels) and disturb the car as little as possible so that the wheels keep rolling (not sliding) on top of the slippery surface. That will maximize the chances of it going straight. As speed is being scrubbed off, then you can start thinking about very smooth steering. Of course estimating lateral forces on the tires over slippery surface at speed is the trick here and it only comes with experience.
Since it's not advisable to have too many of these "experiences" , the best way to learn this is to take a RW car on an empty frozen parking lot in winter and practice. The more slippery surface at lower speeds will pretty accurately replicate a less lippery surface (grass, dirt) at higher speeds.
And yes, I have had this confirmed in practice, both on ice and on dirt.
Just my $0.02
Z.
06 Boxster S (stock)
Since it's not advisable to have too many of these "experiences" , the best way to learn this is to take a RW car on an empty frozen parking lot in winter and practice. The more slippery surface at lower speeds will pretty accurately replicate a less lippery surface (grass, dirt) at higher speeds.
And yes, I have had this confirmed in practice, both on ice and on dirt.
Just my $0.02
Z.
06 Boxster S (stock)
In any case, when you hit grass, particularly when wet, you're sliding as there's an instantaneous loss of traction. Maintaining throttle for more than a brief moment, an abrupt lift or hitting brakes, etc isnt a good idea as the loss of traction means the wheels will either lock or the drive wheels will simply spin, never uniformly and likely you will induce a spin. Best to gently back down until the wheels slow enough to regain grip. Once the grip is back you can do something. There comes a point in nearly every driver's experience, be it on water, snow, ice, antifreeze, oil, what have you, when they are no longer drivers, but passengers. The most crucial thing, and its not always possible, is to allow the car to seek equilibrium on its own, which generally means doing nothing with the steering wheel or brakes and easing off the gas until you regain traction. Then you can take action.
#87
Track Day
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jaje,
I've been doing DE's for two years -- currently driving in White run group. I'm familiar with the "both feet in" rule and agree it is the best solution when one loses control of the car (i.e. spinning). However, for keeping the car in a straight line on a surface with minimal grip (when off the track), with the hope of regaining control when speed decreases and traction comes back, I believe, it's better to do what RJay also described. In the case of the original poster's video, there was a point when driving off in a straight line would have been best (as others have suggested), once that chance was lost (car started spinning), THEN "both feet in" would have been best, no question.
As RJay suggested, looks like we're agreeing as we're talking about two different situations, each with it's own optimal solution.
Z.
I've been doing DE's for two years -- currently driving in White run group. I'm familiar with the "both feet in" rule and agree it is the best solution when one loses control of the car (i.e. spinning). However, for keeping the car in a straight line on a surface with minimal grip (when off the track), with the hope of regaining control when speed decreases and traction comes back, I believe, it's better to do what RJay also described. In the case of the original poster's video, there was a point when driving off in a straight line would have been best (as others have suggested), once that chance was lost (car started spinning), THEN "both feet in" would have been best, no question.
As RJay suggested, looks like we're agreeing as we're talking about two different situations, each with it's own optimal solution.
Z.
#88
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z12358 - I think we are also of the same opinion - just different ways of stating it. I've been in plenty of slides and situations of loss of traction. I've been recently racing an H5 Honda that makes 90hp on a good day and for me to pass anyone it is in the twisties and often taking them in rather peculiar places by late braking and pressure and holding them off (hopefully) on the straights. This involves a lot taking lines that are not ideal and may get me into the marbles...but a very light car can do amazing things.
#89
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I will say I never lost a DE so that means I won them all !
#90
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I think you disproved that "advice" quite convincingly. That is NOT a good place to lose it, and you were lucky. That turn nerves me out more than any other there. Yes, even 1-2-3! Frankly, I'm a bit surpised that ANYONE would go through there with anything less than 75% throttle... no matter where you turn in. I like it a bit later... like about 10 seconds?
What about this Tremblant Tactic? Stacy? Bob?
Anytime you spin, you have too much side load for the available grip. On the grass, that is magnified 100x. If you had gone COMPLETELY straight -with zero side load - you might have made it. The key to making that work with even more certainty would have been to brake all you could before you left the track surface.
Knowing that it is all wrong EARLY is a good skill to master.
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DOINK... That's what I get for not reading the whole thread!! I didn't think the local "shoes" would agree with the late throttle thing.