Veloce Raptor

I think we took it to mean that the drover in the video was too slow with his hands to anticipate the spin and/or catch it just as it began. I agree with you completely, but took the phrase to mean something else here.

mrbill_fl

Sometimes 'slowhands' ARE what is needed....

When entering a carousel, (ie., sebring's T5), typically its a trail brake, 'slow' turn in, let car (weight), settle, and drive with the gas.

vs. an agressive turn in, making a big turn-in initially, or throwing the car.

-all the crash senerios above, required quick hands to get ahead of an out of control car.

-By the time that bmw left the track, his fate was determined.

Larry Herman

Yeah, I see which way the thread is going.........nevermind.

renvagn

+1

Now if we don't get back on topic soon, Todd will be joining in. HAHA Hope things are well.

Bryan Watts

Just needs to shift faster...

Veloce Raptor

truth

M758

I don't believe that about being reactive, but I do feel you need to stay in front of the car. I feel that when you are reactivly controlling skid you are "saving" the car from doom. Ok if you must, but really you should never get into that spot since you are "behind the car"

True skid control involved adjusting your inputs to the car for the impending slide. A long time ago a really fast driver took a friend of mine for a ride. The passenger noted is car and skid control was amazing and he ask how he reacted so quick. The driver said he did not react at all. In this corner at this point he KNEW the car was going to step out and slid and as a result started correcting even before the slid. This allowed him to control the car before it really go off balance. If it waited for it to slid and tried to react it would have been too late.

Even so timing the correction is still critical in controlling a skid be it a small one or a large one. Really good skid control involves constantly controlling little skids all around the track and doing so such that you never let them get to be big skids.

"Slow hands" can really be two things.

1) failing to respond to a slide or skid until well after the situation. As a result no level of input can maintain the car's course.

2) responding to the car at the right time, but not doing so strongly enough to actually produce the desired change in the car. ie you feel the slide and counter steer, but it is slow and lazy counter steer instead of sharp fast one. As a result the car input is muted and too late to control the car.

Larry Herman

THAT is the essence of it. It is all about knowing when the car is in an attitude where it will slide, and being ready if it slides too much.

mrbill_fl

-Funny, I call out for 'slow hands' in turns.. all the time... as a good thing.
T1 and T5, turn in, at sebring.... I find it a good term for slowing down the steering inputs... and avoiding early apex situations.

hadn't heard it used as bad connotation before now.

Edward

That makes total sense to me, all of it. While not in race group, this median timetrial driver has learned a thing or two about sliding the car. On two different occasions, I had the priviledge of having ex-pro drivers (the real deal pro drivers as in Indy, Daytona, etc.) drive my car with me in the pass seat. Wow! Did I say wow? Fast felt smooth as my car performed control slide after control slide at every turn, at the same spots, every time. No drama in their hands. And they were "correcting" nothing. It was all driver initiated. As valuable as these moments were in my learneing curve, even more so was talking to them afterward. And it is exactly what M said above: they KNEW where to step it out each time, and did so in order to get through each turn in the fastest way possible. Fun, yes; awe-inspiring, to say the least; something I strive toward, definitely

Edward

Juha G

I don't buy into this theory. I am sure the driver (maybe not knowlingly though) felt the traction starting to worsen and made a correction.
Granted human's have a minimum of 0.5s reaction time but this is where fast drivers are separated from the slower ones; a really fast driver will not get into to situations where he wouldn't allow that 0.5s to react and make corrections. I.e. he will approach the limit of adhesion progressively and will not cause a situation where the traction is lost in a blink of an eye. Surely in racing this happens every once in a while and that's when you see the cars sliding.

Even though the traction after reaching the limit of adhesion of the tire is lost rather quickly, it is still not happening in a millisecond if the car is driven right. A good driver will feel when this starts happening and will react with a correction when there's is still traction left. -> no sliding at all.

M758

Well there are 2 corners on the track I race on most often where I know when I do something the car will step out a bit and need a counter steer to "save" it. There are infact 3 spots where I plan for this and will begin a correct long before the car is out of shape. It has become natural to me in that it just part of what it takes to get around that track smoothly. I don't wait for the car to "lose grip" before I correct or even wait till it feels like it will lose grip. I know when touch the brakes at this point in the track the back end will come around so as soon as is touch the brakes I start a steering correction and then prepare to use throttle stop the slide. This allows me to get the car to rotate much faster and this carry more speed. If I hit the brakes and the wait to react to the car I woulld be caught flat footed. I could probably save the car from hitting anything, but my save would cost time and kill my momentum.
There is even one more corner where I know the car will understeer a bit and adjust my turn in point to compensate for the understeer such that once the car turns, understeer and then hooks up it is point right where I need it. Interstingly taking that turn in point at a slower speed would result in a too early apex, but a higher speed the slight washing out of the front end lines up the car just right. Again not reacting to the slid, but planning for it before it happens.


In the end a driver cannot be reactive in the car the need to proactive. That means reading the road and knowing what is going to happen before it does so that when they give inputs to the car it can remain in balance and even in a controlled slide all the way around a corner. A good driver leaves not extra traction anywhere, but know exactly how to get a little bit more by adjusting the car and he knows when the car is going to exceed the traction limit and then manages that.

Juha G

And how exactly do you define these 3 points on the track? Do you have some cones there or a pole or something?
When do you know that you need to apply the correction? Needing to unwind while you apply brakes so your car won't oversteer is one thing and sounds like it's the way your car needs to be driven but I am 100% sure that you do feel when this correction is needed in it comes from the back of your head. What if you come in a little bit slower, I bet you don't need that correction then at all, or if you are easier on the brakes etc. How do you know exactly when to do the correction unless you feel in the seat of your pants? Or do you allways hit the same exact spot on the track at the same exact speed with the same exact tires etc...

There is a fine line between the sliding area and the grip area of the tire but to most good drivers this line is not actually very fine at all. Transition from the grip side to the sliding side will allow them time to react before the car itself starts sliding. Your body will sense the slightest changes in the accelerations and this is exactly what happens when you go over the limit of adhesion of the tires. The car will not exactly slam violently sideways when the grip starts to fade away, will it?

M758

Same spots all the time. It comes from consistancy (ie at this spot on the track if am going this fast and use this much brake the car WILL step out and so I add in the rigth countersteer to keep the car in line and move on) and it is the fastest way around the track given that every set-up needs some compromise. If I change the car such that it does not respond like that in those spots I am either going too slow or the car will be worse some place else.

I not talking about DE land where everything needs to be undercontrol at all times. I am talking about racing where you need to push the boundries of the car and you. If you enter an a corner and simply turn and never need to "adjust" you are going too slow. Way to slow. There is a difference between driving at limit constantly correcting, preparing for the inevitble slides (like using the poor grip of concrete vs asphalt to help rotate the car) and failing about wildly on the track always reacting to the what the car just did rather than what the car is going to do.

To be fast you need be prepared and ready for what the car is going to do any moment in time. It when you are unprepared that bad things can happen. I once ran through patch of oil at 100 mph turning 1.3 G's corner with wall 30 feet away on the outside. Granted it was not by choice but I watch the car infront who was also on the limit hit an oil patch jump side ways about 5 feet. It scared him so much he parked the car that lap. I saw it and really could not slow down much as I was on the limit myself, but I let the step out sideways about 3 feet and just kept going. Disconcerting to besure, but because I was not surprised by it I did not need to react to it I could plan for it. That made all the differenve between a "code brown" moment and a slight increase in heart rate to be follow be the joy of gaining a position on track as the driver gathered it all up.

Juha G

Exactly!
You do realize that this is completely opposite to what you were arguing before. In essence you just confirmed what I said already earlier:

Something happens->driver feels it->makes correction.

The difference between a fast driver and slow driver is how much speed/time is lost during this episode.

It's very simple in my opinion!