track car vs street car
05-01-2008, 04:13 AM
#31
Race Car
The thing that drew me to Porsches in the first place was that you could drive one to the track, beat on it all day long, pass everybody, and then drive it back home. Outside of realizing there will always be some cars I can't pass, I've stuck with that idea. I drive as far as 500 miles to different west-coast tracks, bolt on a wing and a splitter when I get there -- and I'm good to go.
To me, a dedicated track car for anything other than professional racing is its own sort of compromise -- if it's a production car, shouldn't you be able to drive it around when you're not racing? But that's just my particular viewpoint, and I'm sure it's shaped by the fact that I don't have the room I'd need for a trailer and tow vehicle.
To me, a dedicated track car for anything other than professional racing is its own sort of compromise -- if it's a production car, shouldn't you be able to drive it around when you're not racing? But that's just my particular viewpoint, and I'm sure it's shaped by the fact that I don't have the room I'd need for a trailer and tow vehicle.
05-01-2008, 11:47 AM
#32
Race Director
Well lets get one thing straight.
A dedicated track car can still be street legal and driven to the track and back. The differce between it and a dual use car is that you have no expectation that driving it on street will be comfortalbe. A dual use car needs to be somewhat comfortable on the street as only part of its focus is the track. A dedicated track car is built the track first. It could be trailered or street legal and driven to the track and back. It is very unlikly however a dedicated track car will see use on the road that does not involve to and from the track or to/from the shop.
It would take me very little to make my race prepped 944 spec car legal for the roads and then have the ability to drive to and from the track. Trailer however does make much more comfortable to back and forth however.
Jack's car is street legal and driven to the track, but is more track car than street car. Jack I believe you have roll cage correct?
A dedicated track car can still be street legal and driven to the track and back. The differce between it and a dual use car is that you have no expectation that driving it on street will be comfortalbe. A dual use car needs to be somewhat comfortable on the street as only part of its focus is the track. A dedicated track car is built the track first. It could be trailered or street legal and driven to the track and back. It is very unlikly however a dedicated track car will see use on the road that does not involve to and from the track or to/from the shop.
It would take me very little to make my race prepped 944 spec car legal for the roads and then have the ability to drive to and from the track. Trailer however does make much more comfortable to back and forth however.
Jack's car is street legal and driven to the track, but is more track car than street car. Jack I believe you have roll cage correct?
05-01-2008, 12:33 PM
#34
Addicted Specialist
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Well lets get one thing straight.
A dedicated track car can still be street legal and driven to the track and back. The differce between it and a dual use car is that you have no expectation that driving it on street will be comfortalbe. A dual use car needs to be somewhat comfortable on the street as only part of its focus is the track. A dedicated track car is built the track first. It could be trailered or street legal and driven to the track and back. It is very unlikly however a dedicated track car will see use on the road that does not involve to and from the track or to/from the shop.
It would take me very little to make my race prepped 944 spec car legal for the roads and then have the ability to drive to and from the track. Trailer however does make much more comfortable to back and forth however.
...
A dedicated track car can still be street legal and driven to the track and back. The differce between it and a dual use car is that you have no expectation that driving it on street will be comfortalbe. A dual use car needs to be somewhat comfortable on the street as only part of its focus is the track. A dedicated track car is built the track first. It could be trailered or street legal and driven to the track and back. It is very unlikly however a dedicated track car will see use on the road that does not involve to and from the track or to/from the shop.
It would take me very little to make my race prepped 944 spec car legal for the roads and then have the ability to drive to and from the track. Trailer however does make much more comfortable to back and forth however.
...
By contrast, my SC Trackmeister is street registered, but she's loud, stiff ride, tracks every road crevice, and everybody hears me braking ... but can get me to work on those really nice days (like casual fridays at work), or when I just want a more viceral driving experience (or it's raining ...993 hasn't seen rain in who know how long; yeah, I feel spoiled
).I have just enough space in the driveway for the trailex, and my brother (my trackrat bud) owns the tow vehicle. So I am fortunate on many counts. Suffice it to say, there are many economic and practical considerations in going "dedicated track car." IF one can do it, then it has lots to offer in the way of grins and convenience. But remember that doing so also brings with it its own set of expenses, issues, and hassles.
Edward
05-01-2008, 12:37 PM
#35
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This is how I see/define "track car" as well. My 993 (not a budget breaker, mind you, but my dream car nevertheless) is all-street now as my "dedicated" daily driver. Plenty comfortable for me, but maybe not to a guy who doesn't know stiff bilsteins, low-prof tires, or tactile steering. Put it this way, my wife does NOT like driving it. But can I put it back on the track on a moment's notice? You bet.
By contrast, my SC Trackmeister is street registered, but she's loud, stiff ride, tracks every road crevice, and everybody hears me braking ... but can get me to work on those really nice days (like casual fridays at work), or when I just want a more viceral driving experience (or it's raining ...993 hasn't seen rain in who know how long; yeah, I feel spoiled ).
I have just enough space in the driveway for the trailex, and my brother (my trackrat bud) owns the tow vehicle. So I am fortunate on many counts. Suffice it to say, there are many economic and practical considerations in going "dedicated track car." IF one can do it, then it has lots to offer in the way of grins and convenience. But remember that doing so also brings with it its own set of expenses, issues, and hassles.
Edward
By contrast, my SC Trackmeister is street registered, but she's loud, stiff ride, tracks every road crevice, and everybody hears me braking ... but can get me to work on those really nice days (like casual fridays at work), or when I just want a more viceral driving experience (or it's raining ...993 hasn't seen rain in who know how long; yeah, I feel spoiled
).I have just enough space in the driveway for the trailex, and my brother (my trackrat bud) owns the tow vehicle. So I am fortunate on many counts. Suffice it to say, there are many economic and practical considerations in going "dedicated track car." IF one can do it, then it has lots to offer in the way of grins and convenience. But remember that doing so also brings with it its own set of expenses, issues, and hassles.
Edward
05-01-2008, 01:14 PM
#36
Race Car
It has a padded cage, and air conditioning, and a leather interior. I drive it on the street more than I do on the track. But it goes to the track pretty regularly.
05-01-2008, 01:59 PM
#37
Nordschleife Master
Great street cars suck and the track. Great track cars suck on the street.
Here's my definition of a what makes a real track car:
Exhaust just loud enough to make your ear bleed
Spring rates slightly stiffer than Max Mosley in an Amsterdamn bondage club
Brakes that squeal like a stuck pig at any speed less than 100mph
Only has one seat, and you need the *** of a 12 year old asian kid to sqeeze into it.
Full cage that makes climbing into the something akin to yoga convention
Interior? You have got to be joking.
Enormously fat slicks
Is only washed to make it go faster
Has at least 1 "donut" on the side of the car
Paint is slightly more cracked than Tammy Faye Baker's makup
Here's my definition of a what makes a real track car:
Exhaust just loud enough to make your ear bleed
Spring rates slightly stiffer than Max Mosley in an Amsterdamn bondage club
Brakes that squeal like a stuck pig at any speed less than 100mph
Only has one seat, and you need the *** of a 12 year old asian kid to sqeeze into it.
Full cage that makes climbing into the something akin to yoga convention
Interior? You have got to be joking.
Enormously fat slicks
Is only washed to make it go faster
Has at least 1 "donut" on the side of the car
Paint is slightly more cracked than Tammy Faye Baker's makup
05-01-2008, 02:02 PM
#38
Rennlist Member
Not as far gone is my C4S. It has the X74 so it can rub on road bumps, roll bar so I can bump my head, GT3 seats so I can crush the family jewels on the bolsters as I get in and out several times a day. Itis a street car still.
Edward's SC trakmeister and M758's race -prepped 944 sound more like track cars. They see more miles on the track even though they are street legal, simply because they are such a burden to drive on the street, in traffic and in potholes, and such a joy on the track.
05-01-2008, 02:21 PM
#39
Drifting
Great street cars suck and the track. Great track cars suck on the street.
Here's my definition of a what makes a real track car:
Exhaust just loud enough to make your ear bleed
Spring rates slightly stiffer than Max Mosley in an Amsterdamn bondage club
Brakes that squeal like a stuck pig at any speed less than 100mph
Only has one seat, and you need the *** of a 12 year old asian kid to sqeeze into it.
Full cage that makes climbing into the something akin to yoga convention
Interior? You have got to be joking.
Enormously fat slicks
Is only washed to make it go faster
Has at least 1 "donut" on the side of the car
Paint is slightly more cracked than Tammy Faye Baker's makup
Here's my definition of a what makes a real track car:
Exhaust just loud enough to make your ear bleed
Spring rates slightly stiffer than Max Mosley in an Amsterdamn bondage club
Brakes that squeal like a stuck pig at any speed less than 100mph
Only has one seat, and you need the *** of a 12 year old asian kid to sqeeze into it.
Full cage that makes climbing into the something akin to yoga convention
Interior? You have got to be joking.
Enormously fat slicks
Is only washed to make it go faster
Has at least 1 "donut" on the side of the car
Paint is slightly more cracked than Tammy Faye Baker's makup
LOL
Mine is a "Tweener" Roll Bar, Asian *** Seats , Low, etc.. Always have R-Comp tires on it so I drive it on the streets once a week maybe.. I have a trailer for the away games. But I am TOO Vein not to keep it clean.
I like my cruises on the streets, sure it can ride rough, it's loud, but it's cool.
05-01-2008, 02:37 PM
#40
Addicted Specialist
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Yes ...LOL
I like to drive it to work at the very least once every 3-4 weeks, just to keep the fluids and seals kosher. But I have been known to take her out on particularly nice days ...or when I just want to hear/feel the glory of 911-ness. And when it rains, yeah, most assuredly; out she goes. A co-worker of mine laughs at me ...calls it my "B" car since he sees it on those rare SoCal wet days (or when the forecast is > 50% rain ). The 993 is just spoiled like thet ...or is it I who am spoiled like that?? What can I say, life IS good!
Edward
I like to drive it to work at the very least once every 3-4 weeks, just to keep the fluids and seals kosher. But I have been known to take her out on particularly nice days ...or when I just want to hear/feel the glory of 911-ness. And when it rains, yeah, most assuredly; out she goes. A co-worker of mine laughs at me ...calls it my "B" car since he sees it on those rare SoCal wet days (or when the forecast is > 50% rain
). The 993 is just spoiled like thet ...or is it I who am spoiled like that?? What can I say, life IS good!Edward
05-01-2008, 02:52 PM
#41
Drifting
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I've never really "enjoyed" driving my 944 on the street, even with 100% stock. In my area (DC suburbs) most driving is utilitarian, limited by the Camry/Accord in front of me, with vast periods of heavy traffic. Heavy steering, lots of clutch pedal work, 1980s NVH and a 20 year old stereo ... I drive it at least one/week though 'cause it looks so nice.
And now that I have 400# springs and Bilstein Escort Cups, street driving is pretty impractical. But as Clarkson's article notes, with killer suspension and R-compounds, it literally comes to life on the track. It's like a penguin in the water versus on land.
The best quote from the article:
"I’m sad to announce, then, that road cars and track cars are two separate entities and that neither will work, no matter what you do, in the other’s domain." - Jeremy Clarkson
PS: And what really distinguishes the two (road vs track) is suspension and tires. Stripped interiors and roll cages certainly make street life tougher; but they do not appreciably enhance track performance.
And now that I have 400# springs and Bilstein Escort Cups, street driving is pretty impractical. But as Clarkson's article notes, with killer suspension and R-compounds, it literally comes to life on the track. It's like a penguin in the water versus on land.
The best quote from the article:
"I’m sad to announce, then, that road cars and track cars are two separate entities and that neither will work, no matter what you do, in the other’s domain." - Jeremy Clarkson
PS: And what really distinguishes the two (road vs track) is suspension and tires. Stripped interiors and roll cages certainly make street life tougher; but they do not appreciably enhance track performance.
05-01-2008, 03:22 PM
#42
Race Car
Strictly speaking, you're correct. But I think it also depends on your definitions. Living close to all sorts of great canyon roads, I'd hate to have my car gathering dust on a trailer for weeks at a time. The car podiumed in the first two Open Track Challenges (a week-long, west coast, multi-track time trial) and won both its class and the overall Touring Division in the event's final year. It won its class in its first season of club racing with ARC and it's won a bunch of west coast time trials. It also gets me to the Home Depot and Starbucks on a regular basis (even though you don't get trophies for those runs).
Would it be faster if I cut out all the comfort items? Sure. And if I was racing in a particular PCA or SCCA class, I'd have to build the car to the class specs if I wanted to be at the front of the pack.
I won't make any broad statements about how everyone else should track their cars. But for me, it's just not the same if the car is only set up for one activity or the other -- that's what's so cool about a Porsche.
All that said, it's always funny when people bring their late-model supercars to the track and can't figure out why they're so much slower than my early-seventies 911. Heavy and soft will always bog you down on a race track.
Would it be faster if I cut out all the comfort items? Sure. And if I was racing in a particular PCA or SCCA class, I'd have to build the car to the class specs if I wanted to be at the front of the pack.
I won't make any broad statements about how everyone else should track their cars. But for me, it's just not the same if the car is only set up for one activity or the other -- that's what's so cool about a Porsche.
All that said, it's always funny when people bring their late-model supercars to the track and can't figure out why they're so much slower than my early-seventies 911. Heavy and soft will always bog you down on a race track.
05-01-2008, 03:27 PM
#43
Nordschleife Master
Exhaust just loud enough to make your ear bleed
Spring rates slightly stiffer than Max Mosley in an Amsterdamn bondage club
Brakes that squeal like a stuck pig at any speed less than 100mph
Only has one seat, and you need the *** of a 12 year old asian kid to sqeeze into it.
Full cage that makes climbing into the something akin to yoga convention
Interior? You have got to be joking.
Enormously fat slicks
Is only washed to make it go faster
Has at least 1 "donut" on the side of the car
Paint is slightly more cracked than Tammy Faye Baker's makup
Spring rates slightly stiffer than Max Mosley in an Amsterdamn bondage club
Brakes that squeal like a stuck pig at any speed less than 100mph
Only has one seat, and you need the *** of a 12 year old asian kid to sqeeze into it.
Full cage that makes climbing into the something akin to yoga convention
Interior? You have got to be joking.
Enormously fat slicks
Is only washed to make it go faster
Has at least 1 "donut" on the side of the car
Paint is slightly more cracked than Tammy Faye Baker's makup
Like most of the rest of you guys I got into tracking my street car. I probably put 10,000 track miles on my '88 S4. I knew I could afford to ball it up if that happened, but I didn't like that thought. Thankfully it never did. The worst that happened was I bent a wheel once. Got it fixed for $125 including shipping!
I used up a bunch of tires and a few brake pads, but nothing to extreme actually! Well, ok, it would eat a set of front R-compounds in 6 sessions, but it weighs 3600# and only has 245 series tires up front (up from the regular 225 street size!). Put loud pads on it and stiffer roll bar and harness to hold me in the seat so it was pretty fun at the track!
Well, I finally decided that I would do a full on track car (still wanted a 928) so I bought Mark Anderson's old rolling chassis. I figured I could get it put back together and running for $25k maybe $30k w/ paint and looking good! While that is not cheap, it would not bother me to wad it up to much...still don't really like that thought!
Well, 5 years later I ended up with my most expensive car being my track car!! SUCK! I already had a trailer and an R/V because back when I was tracking the S4 I knew I wanted to stay "on site" and not drive the car to and from. So, while at least I had the transportation for the race car I REALLY don't want to wreck my most expensive car.
Another fortunate thing for me is that most all the tracks I drive at are very forgiving. You can pretty much go WAY OFF of them and not hit a thing! There are a few corners that it is good to be careful on, but most corners on the tracks I drive are pretty safe.
Of course the point of my exercise was lost... I wanted a dedicated DE/Race car for LESS money than I had in the S4 or close to it. Missed that by about 3X! Do I like the race car on the track. HELL YEA! 12" slicks, stiff as a freaking board with and AWESOME roll cage it is very safe and looks the $hit too! I only have a stock engine and transmission so it is not a rocket, but DAMN will it go around corners! Fun around them too...the slicks are a TOTAL BLAST to drive on.
Oh, it weight 1000# less than the S4 and has so much more tire that I can use a full set of tires for 2+ weekends!!! AND, get this, I buy used slicks for $75 each! So, while the cost of building the car back to a racer was prohibitively expensive, running it is actually fairly cheap! MUCH cheaper than the S4 was! It is also pretty easy on brakes since it weighs so much less, but the trade off here is the grip of the slicks so brakes only slightly favor the race car in wear characteristics.
YMMV!
James
Austin, TX
80 928 GT class PCA Club Racer
81 928
84 928 S
88 928 S4
92 928 Euro GTS
94 928 GTS
http://home.austin.rr.com/jemorrison2
05-01-2008, 03:54 PM
#44
Race Car
I'm in the camp with Palting and RonCT. Two years ago when I did 15+ events I was well on my way to justifying a dedicated track car to enjoy the hobby with. But business committments lead to me only doing 4 days last year. That's hardly enough track time for me to justifying purchasing a dedicated car or the extras that go along with one.
It's much easier for me to justify the sacrifices in my street cars even if it means going through more consumables while at the track because I'm in a full weight street car or dealing with the ride of stiff springs and squeeky brakes on a dialy basis.
If / When I eventually get to the point in life where I can take the time I want to run 25+ events a year I'm sure my view on this will change, but until I can get to that point the dual use car is for me.
Andy
It's much easier for me to justify the sacrifices in my street cars even if it means going through more consumables while at the track because I'm in a full weight street car or dealing with the ride of stiff springs and squeeky brakes on a dialy basis.
If / When I eventually get to the point in life where I can take the time I want to run 25+ events a year I'm sure my view on this will change, but until I can get to that point the dual use car is for me.
Andy
05-01-2008, 04:06 PM
#45
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my .02. It really depends on several things, but probably the most important is: do you mind driving a high performance, purpose built track car on the street and if not, how much are you going to drive it? As a daily driver or do you only want it street legal so you can drive it rather than tow it to the track?
I know guys that have cars that could qualify as full fledged race cars but are street legal and they drive them to work and back every day. That would drive me insane. What I believe Porsche has been trying to do since 1989 is to come up with a true luxury GT car that is comfortable as a daily driver but sporty enough to drive at the track. I believe the 997S with sport mode has finally filled the bill. It was the first 911 that my wife liked to ride in. Still I don't track it...it is just too nice and I want to keep it that way. But I also race and have a dedicated race car. Even if I didn't compete I think I would get a track car that was street legal and keep the 997 for Weekend jaunts. Again, just my opinion.
I know guys that have cars that could qualify as full fledged race cars but are street legal and they drive them to work and back every day. That would drive me insane. What I believe Porsche has been trying to do since 1989 is to come up with a true luxury GT car that is comfortable as a daily driver but sporty enough to drive at the track. I believe the 997S with sport mode has finally filled the bill. It was the first 911 that my wife liked to ride in. Still I don't track it...it is just too nice and I want to keep it that way. But I also race and have a dedicated race car. Even if I didn't compete I think I would get a track car that was street legal and keep the 997 for Weekend jaunts. Again, just my opinion.